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Oh it's strange..so strange!
23 replies
lawyer said on May 12, 2004 12:40:
Comment removed by author
Jud (moderator) said on May 12, 2004 14:41:
Den: there’s no evidence for the ones with british soldiers, but the US for sure are real.
Ferdan said on May 14, 2004 10:56:
May 13, 2004 – WASHINGTON - Shocking shots of sexcapades involving Pfc. Lynndie England were among the hundreds of X-rated photos and videos from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal shown to lawmakers in a top-secret Capitol conference room yesterday.
“She was having sex with numerous partners. It appeared to be consensual,” said a lawmaker who saw the photos.
And, videos showed the disgraced soldier - made notorious in a photo showing her holding a leash looped around an Iraqi prisoner’s neck - engaged in graphic sex acts with other soldiers in front of Iraqi prisoners, Pentagon officials told NBC Nightly News.
“Almost everybody was naked all the time,” another lawmaker said.
Many members of Congress left the 45-minute viewing session early, thereby missing the porno performance by England, but there were enough other images of torture, humiliation and intimidation to sicken anyone.
“It was pretty disgusting, not what you’d expect from Americans,” said Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.). “There was lots of sexual stuff - not of the Iraqis, but of our troops.”
Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), who also characterized the photos as “disgusting,” agreed, noting, “It’s hard to believe that this actually is taking place in a military facility.”
The shocking photos and videos, provided on computer disks by Pentagon officials, showed attack dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners tied together on the floor, senators revealed as they emerged from the heavily guarded conference room.
“It was significantly worse than I had anticipated,” said Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore). “Take the worst case and multiply it over several times.”
“I don’t know how these people got into our Army,” said Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R-Colo.), who reported seeing “several pictures of Iraqi women who were disrobed or putting their shirts up.”
Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) described the images as “more detailed and more graphic than the pictures that have been released publicly,” referring to the disturbing photos of Iraqis being abused at Abu Ghraib prison that surfaced two weeks ago, and which Islamic terrorists claim led to this week’s revenge beheading of American Nick Berg.
“Normally, I side with disclosure and openness, but in this case, these photos are evidence,” Schumer said, indicating that he favors keeping the lid on the alarming pictures, as Vice President Dick Cheney and Sen. John Warner (R-Va.) have urged.
Rep. Jane Harman (Calif.), ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said she was most appalled by a video of a handcuffed prisoner beating his head against a wall in an apparent bid to knock himself unconscious to escape abuse.
In another video clip, she said, a group of men were shown masturbating.
Before the pictures of England’s sex romps were shown to Congress, the 21-year-old reservist from West Virginia tried to portray herself as a reluctant participant who was just following orders.
“I didn’t really, I mean, want to be in any pictures,” England told a Denver TV station.
“I was instructed by persons in higher rank to ’stand there, hold this leash, look at the camera,’ and they took picture for PsyOps [psychological operations],” she told KCNC-TV.
England acknowledged “it was kind of weird” when she was photographed smiling, with a cigarette in her mouth, as she leaned forward and pointed at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi at Abu Ghraib prison.
England has refused to identify who gave her the orders, saying only that they came from “persons in my chain of command.”
England faces a military court-martial that includes charges such as conspiracy to maltreat prisoners and assault consummated by battery.
She could face punishment ranging from a reprimand to more than 15 years in prison.
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm
Ferdan said on May 14, 2004 11:03:
US army probes deaths in custody
US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has promised that any Americans abusing Iraqi prisoners will be punished.
The US military says there have been investigations into 25 deaths in US custody in Iraq and Afghanistan.
In two cases the dead men were found to have been murdered by Americans, according to a US army official.
Senior US politicians have called for public hearings on mistreatment of prisoners, and have demanded the right to question Mr Rumsfeld.
Angry senators said they had been kept in the dark by the defence department until photographs of apparent abuse emerged in the media.
’Un-American’
But Mr Rumsfeld said armed forces chiefs acted swiftly and properly as soon as the claims came to light in January.
Mr Rumsfeld said those responsible for the “unacceptable and un-American” conduct would be brought to justice.
The Pentagon has confirmed that criminal charges have been filed against six US soldiers in relation to the photos, while six senior officers have been reprimanded.
But there have been concerns that the mistreatment is more widespread.
A senior army official said there had been investigations into 25 cases of death and 10 of abuse in US custody in Iraq or Afghanistan since December 2002.
The BBC’s Pentagon correspondent Nick Childs says of the 25 deaths, 12 were found to be either of natural or “undetermined” causes, one was a “justifiable homicide”, and two were murders. Ten inquiries are ongoing, he says.
Not jailed
An Army official said a soldier had been convicted of using excessive force when he shot dead a prisoner who was throwing stones at him.
He was thrown out of the army but did not go to jail.
The other murder was committed by a private contractor who worked for the CIA, the official said.
Following the emergence of the photos, taken at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, army chiefs were called before an emergency hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Senators were angry that they had not been alerted that an investigation into abuse had taken place.
“The ramifications are so serious and so severe, and the implications are so grave, that that report should have been forthcoming here immediately,” said the committee’s top Democrat, Senator Carl Levin.
’Sadistic abuses’
The internal report by Maj Gen Antonio Taguba found evidence of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses of Iraqi prisoners”, including sexual abuse.
The abuse of Iraqi detainees has been condemned across the US political spectrum including by President George W Bush.
But Mr Rumsfeld also defended the actions of the armed forces, saying they had acted promptly and properly, launching an investigation in January the day after abuse allegations were first made - and issuing a press release two days after that.
Damage control
As the US tried to contain the damage caused as the pictures of abuse were shown in the press in the Arab world, US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice appeared on the Al-Jazeera channel to appeal for trust.
“The president guarantees that those who did that be held accountable... and people will see that we are determined to get to the truth,” she said.
But in Iraq, the US-appointed human rights minister, Abdul-Basat al-Turki, resigned on Tuesday in protest at the abuses.
Meanwhile a lawyer for one of the soldiers allegedly involved in the abuse cases at Abu Ghraib said they were simply “following orders”.
Guy Womack, attorney for Charles Graner Jr, said the campaign was coordinated by governmental agencies, including the CIA.
The former head of the prison, Brig Gen Janis Karpinski, said she believed military commanders were trying to shift the blame onto her and other reservists and away from the intelligence officers still at work in the prison.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3684381.stm
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By the way, innocent or not, torture is against human rights. And by the way, those people weren’t even judged by a court.
Disgusting, and even more disgusting that no one of the big names is paying for it.
coyboyusa said on May 14, 2004 13:16:
i thought we a greed that basing forum topics were to be archive and then dismissed this is totally unecessary. if you are gonna blame all american for this then don’t get mad at me when i say all arabs are apathetic bomb strappin gto their babies murderers plain and simple
coyboyusa said on May 14, 2004 22:19:
and why exactly are you assuming that anyone on the command levelk even had knowledge of this. american forces are stretched very thing throughout iraq. the peopel set to ruin abubaba prison were of low rank and really didnt’ have an authority to respond to. grantesd thats a big mistake. granted peoepl should pay. but think about the type of peoepl that are there. i am not saying it justfies what was doene but think about what goes on in your own prison systems. strip searches, confinement etc. you can’t judge a situation unless you were there. and NOON knows ALL the facts yet its all speculation aside from the testimony of prisoners and troops.
and dare u forget the cowards that beheaded a RELIEF WOrker, someoen who was there not in any military role whats so ever. Where’s your outrage over that HYPOCRITES!?
Ferdan said on May 15, 2004 00:55:
1st. Every of those soldiers are saying they were commanded to do that.
2nd.
Geneva Convention ARTICLE 12 relative to Treatment of Prisoners of War:
Prisoners of war are in the hands of the enemy Power, but not of the individuals or military units who have captured them. Irrespective of the individual responsibilities that may exist, THE DETAINING POWER IS RESPONSIBLE for the treatment given them.
3rd. Even if the big heads didn’t know about it, one more reason to fire them... they don’t have the “skill” to command the most powerful army in the world.
LittleSpooky said on May 15, 2004 05:21:
Not gonna argue about anything posted on this... I’m not too thrilled to be hearing about it anyway. One more reason someone thinks I should die for just because I’m an American. However, Ferdan, I have a question. Just a basic one.
Do YOU know at all times, what your parents are doing? What your siblings are doing? What your dog is doing? Think about it. Not every “big wig” is privvy (someone have a dictionary for this word?)to this information. It goes along the lines of “need to know”. As in, “You don’t have the clearance, so you don’t need to know.” I bet the General in charge of the shoe polish didn’t know what was goin on in the prison. Try not to back-hand too many people with that. They honestly might not have known. Hell, *I* didn’t and that’s cuz I’m a Civilian. I found out the way everyone else did: Media.
Jud (moderator) said on May 15, 2004 13:51:
haha so now Americans are the poor victims..
anyway, Ferdan might not know what his parents or brothers are doing but he is not responsible for them, is he? He would be responsible for his dog (if he has one) though, so yes, he should try to know what his dog is doing all the time, and if the dog attacks sb, it’d be the owners fault.
So the same in an army. The superior levels should be aware of what their soldiers below do, that is one of their *duties*, as is the duty of the “supreme” power in the army of US, whoever this person is (I guess the person doesn’t know either). That’s why an army is organised with so much levels.
If these superior levels have no clue what they do “down there”, well it shows poorly organised army. And knowing what “welcome parties” some units of the (US) army give to the newbies = their own people, they should, at least, expect or think that such soldiers could act the same towards prisoners and people that are “below” them.
Besides all that, the Red Cross reported such acts LONG ago, so it’s not anymore that the top levels had no clue about what was going on.
So whether they knew and did nothing or they didn’t know cuz of lack of responsability, the whole thing sucks the same.
AND it has been reported that such “techniques” have been used not only in Iraq. Sure they aren’t the only ones that use torture as a method, but that isn’t an excuse to allow and practise it “well the others also act like this, so we do so as well”... Now it was this army, next time it will be another army reported. I guess the timing wasn’t that good for US though ;)
coyboyusa said on May 15, 2004 17:56:
we spread corruption>?
isnt ti the warlords of africa that are straving the peoepl and convining them that aids doesnt exist?
isnt it radical muslims and greedy arab leadership that hoards the wealth from its sale of oil from its peoepl
I swear to god this is why so many of us no longer come here this forum offically sucks i really hope one day a plane goes crashing into one of your cherished landmarks or a bomb blows up on a train someoen u love is riding on then maybe then u’ll stop living in this dreasm world where u make the one persone with enough balls to fight the real enemy ISLAMIC RADICAL TERRORIST the eneym and u make some nut job like osama bin laden out to be a hero? has all common sense gone from your heads? i think once roxette comes out with a new album I am no longer coming to this forum I’ll make one of my own for peoepl sick of being bashed for their nationality
Ferdan said on May 15, 2004 18:41:
Why are are you mixing up everything??
First you never been bashed ’cos of your nationality, if you take it personal is your problem.
Are you there in Iraq to fight al qaeda???- you missed the by a few hundred miles.
Did you take Husseing out of power to fight islamic terrorism? - we all know he was a SECULARIST (HE DID NOT SUPPORT ANY RELIGION IN THE STATE, and especially islamists) Now that’s why Iraq is in danger of civil war, there are 2 or 3 ISLAMIC groups wanting to set a theocracy, more or less like in Iran.
Now Iraq has terrorist from everywhere, because the american soldiers can’t take care of the frontiers... there you have poor Nick behaded by an Al-qaeda affiliated group.
The detainees were not guilty nor innocent of anything, they were not proven terrorists, they were not proven nothing, since they haven’t been trialed under a court not anything like that.
Then many of them were detained for throwing stones at their tanks, or engaging “unconventional” war attacks, or for being Suspects of being in terrorist groups.
And btw, Judith had bombs in trains by islamic terrorists in her home land......
I had 2 bombings 6 years before the WTC not too
far away from my house, by islamic terrorists, and that doesn’t mean we want to go and bomb the easiest arab-looking country to bomb as revenge or as excuse to fight those that bombed us first.
littlespooky, The law is very especific in cases like this one, and it says that the detaining power is responsible... not the individuals. Article 12 Geneva Convention.
LittleSpooky said on May 15, 2004 22:15:
Ferdan: Never said anything about that. I’m just tired of people back-handing a group as one. Shall I start back-handing your fellow countrymen because of you?
Jud (moderator) said on May 15, 2004 22:36:
jupp indeed, we suffered a terrorist attack (biggest in our country) in Spain bout 2 months ago.. but no, not all muslims are the same, as not all Spanish like bullfight (puke) and dance flamenco.
Ferdan said on May 16, 2004 04:19:
But I in no moment said all Americans were like those soldiers. I know it is not like that, what I am saying is the US government is in no way innocent.
Ferdan said on May 17, 2004 04:36:
This is rather interesting:
“15 Anomalies Surrounding
Death Of Nick Berg
What Really Happened.com Letters
5-14-4
(Warning: Parts of the following discussion contain rather sickening references.)
Arab linguists have said the man posing as the Jordanian Zaraqawi did not speak with a Jordanian dialect. Others have suggested the man reading the written statement may not have been a native speaker of Arabic.
Zaraqawi was missing one leg and had been outfitted with an artificial leg that did not fit or function properly. He was unable to walk or stand normally with his ill-fitting limb. No man in the group showed evidence of such an infirmity.
Numerous indigenous sources have said Zaraqawi was killed by a US helicopter attack months ago when he was unable to move quickly enough to escape the targeted house. While others managed to exit the house in time to survive, he died in the collapsed building.
As any surgeon will testify, the alleged beheading was a fake. A beheading would result in a tremendous amount of spurting blood. There would have been blood everywhere had an actual beheading taken place. When the executioner holds up Berg’s head immediately following what is represented as an actual decapitation of a living person, there is no significant blood flow from the neck or blood splatters showing anywhere on the executioner. Furthermore, the cut was simply too neat to have been done crudely and with such amazing speed by a man wielding a knife. Anybody who has ever carved a turkey knows there is something wrong with the supposed beheading. The suspended head looks more like Berg had been neatly beheaded by a guillotine.
The orange jumpsuit was standard US military issue to men in custody. It is unlikely Berg would have continuing wearing a US custodial uniform if he had been released by the military as they claim. The fact he was still wearing the suit is both anomalous and suggestive. One is forced to speculate as to whether there was an immediate transfer of Berg from the US military to unknown persons, thusly preventing Berg from discarding his US prison garb.
Several of the men in the film were fat by Iraqi standards. If they were Feyadeen or mujahadeen, they probably have been living underground since the first days of the occupation. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been shown on news stories as they have marched and demonstrated. One would be hard pressed to point out a single fat man among these thousands.
Some men had what can only be described as pasty-white hands. Once again, one would be hard pressed to find Arab men with pasty-white hands.
The lack of spurting blood suggests Berg was already dead at the time of the alleged decapitation. It is possible Berg’s dead body was displayed with his head already partially or totally severed. In any case, he almost certainly was killed before the staged beheading. If so, it suggests the captors had no stomach for an actual beheading of a living person, and they opted to fulfill their assignment quietly and with the least amount of gore.
The scream that is heard has been interpreted as a woman’s scream by many viewers. Videotape cognoscenti have further said the scream was amateurishly added to the tape.
The U.S. government translation of one statement made on the film is: “Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?” This is a falsification. The actual statement urged fellow insurgents to get off their hind ends and do something. One assumes the translator being used by the US military is a native speaker of Arabic, so this cannot be explained as an innocent flub. This suggests the US government wanted to inject an alleged al- Qaeda group into the murder of Nick Berg.
Iraqis who have seen the videotape on Arabic news broadcasts are universally saying the men in the film are not Iraqis. Are they saying this partly because the speaker does not employ an Iraqi dialect? Where does their certainty come from?
Firearms experts have stated the AK-47 carried by one man was a “Gilal.” This actually is an Israeli-made weapon that improves on the famous AK- 47. Feyadeen and other insurgents almost universally use AK-47s.
The man in the videotape who is purported to be Zarqawi is wearing a gold ring. This is absolutely proscribed by Islamic law.
The US military has stated that Berg was never in US custody and that he had been in custody of the Iraqi police. The Iraqi police adamantly deny he was ever in their custody. On April 1, an e-mail from Beth A. Payne, the U.S. consular officer in Iraq, was sent to the family of Nick Berg. It stated that Ms. Payne had located Nick, and he was currently in custody of the US military. We have to conclude that either the email was bogus or the US military has been lying.
The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was a standard issue military chair of the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. The chances a terrorist cell would be using this same chair are minimal at best.”
Denstandigaresan said on May 12, 2004 13:06:
By a FEW Americans.
And they were supposingly tortured in jail... I don’t know many innocent people that are put in jail.