lost-little-girl said on April 20, 2003 19:46:

MAYBE I WAS ASLEEP THROUGH IT ALL?

Aaso said on April 20, 2003 20:04:

The real WAR is gonna start now!

sweet_stalker57 said on April 21, 2003 01:42:

weak “troll”.... try just a little bit harder.

Ferdan said on April 21, 2003 11:12:

“Laurent Van der Stockt: “I have seen American Marines kill Iraki civilians”

The photograph Laurent Van der Stockt, working for Gamma Agency under a New York Times contract, accompanied by Peter Maas, a writer working for this same newspaper, has followed for 3 weeks the 4th regiment, 3rd division of Marines until Bagdad was seized the 9th of April. Born in Belgium in 1964, Laurent Van der Stockt works mainly in conflict zones: first Gulf War, Yougoslavia, Afghanistan, Tchetchenia, Africa, occupied territories... He testifies:

“It begins at the Kuwait-Irak border. I’m forcing my way and arrive at Safouan. American soldiers take the initiative of ripping portraits of Saddam Hussein, in the main street, in front of the inhabitants whose joy fades. They don’t imagine a split second that it’s Iraki’s job to do that. That it’s an humiliation. These very same soldiers, three weeks later, will topple the statue of Saddam, in Bagdad...

I understand that the main strategy of the Marines is not to waste time. In the cities they cross, they have to demonstrate force and move on, go East, through the desert, without any contact with the population. One has trouble visualizing what an army running through the sands lokks like. It’s an ant colony on the move. It’s more than a city walking, it’s a world, with no distinguishable ends. It is Cesar’s Army, ultramodern, mechanical.

On the first few days, with clleaguues from the New York Times and Newsweek, I try to keep up with the convoy in a jeep, in a sort of Hide and Seek game. During this we spend a lot of time with the 1500 marines of the 3/4, under the command of Col. Bryan P. McCoy. His men give us water, gas and some food. In exchange f their tolerance we have to respect some rules: never go ahead of the convoy, camp where we are told to. We’re just “tolerated”. The Colonel ensures that “them guys behave”. He knows we have seen more wars than his troops.

For McCoy there is little doubt we are already interesting. We will tell his story. Confidence sets in. We get the right to sit in front of the convoy. Generally marines are less well treated than the soldiers. They are trained for the worst, least honorable tasks. They have the oldest tanks, the least modern M16 rifles. They say USMC (United States Marines Corps) really stands for United States Misguided Children, the childs their God and Country has forgotten.

Their motto is “Search and Kill”. The Kilo Unit is nicknamed “Killo Killer”. On the tanks are painted the words “Carnivore” or “Blind Killer”. McCoy can say with a smile “Shame on you” to the sniper who just told him “I’ve got eight, Sir, but only five” : litterally, I hit 8 but only killed five.

I have seen few war with so little feedback. The Iraki army is but a ghost, nearly inexistant. In three weeks I have seen only a few rockets, some gunshots, deserted trenches with an Iraki soldier’s cadaver, a piece of bread sitting aside. Nothing near any real conflict, especially when put in contrast with the ludicrous american means.

On the 6th of april, we are in the vicinity of Bagdad, in front of a strategical bridge thatthe Americans call The Bagdad Highway Bridge. There are more inhabited zones ere. American snipers are told to kill whoever tries to cross the brisge. This night a teenager is shot dead while crossing it.

On the 7th of April morning, marines decide to cross the bridge. A mortar shel lands on an armored vehicle. Two Marines are killed. The crossing takes tragic dimensions. The soldiers are nervous, upset. They scream. I still think the threat is not important and follow suit. They scream orders, their respective positions, lost between the fantasm, mythology, and the conditionning. The operation turns into a scene of “the bridge on the Kwai River”.

After this the land is open, the soldiers advance quickly and take positions, hinding behind hillocks. They are still very upset. A blue car drives towards the column. Three warning shots are fires, not very accurately, in order to stop the vehicle. The car goes on, then takes a U-turn, takes cover, then comes back slowly. Marines fire. It gets confused, they fire from everywhere. I can hear some “Cease fire !” shouted. Then the silence is deafening. Two men and a woman just got full of holes. This was the enemy, the threat.

A second car comes, and the same scenario repeats. The passengers are killed instantly. An old man walks slowly, helping himself with a cane, on the pavement. They kill him as well (photo). Just like the previous day, the Marines fire on a car that follows the border of the river because they estimate it is too close. The car rolls over, full of holes. A woman and two children get out, miraculously unharmed. They take cover in a small house. It is immediatly annihilated by a shot from a tank.

The Marines are conditionned to reach their objective whatever the cost is, and to stay alive and ready whatever the enemy is. Theyuse and abuse of their oversized firepower. This troop, with its tons of material, supported by some extraordinary artillery, protected by modern jets and helicopters, fires on on inhabitants who just won’t understand what just happened.

I have seen with my own eyes 15 civilians getting killed, in two days. I know war enough to say it is always dirty, that civlians are the first victims. But fighting a war this way is plain absurd.

In the harshest moment, the man who shows the most humanity is a guy called Doug. He makes real warning shots. At 800 yards he can hit a tire, then the engine if it’s not enough. He saves ten lives in two hours by frightening civilians that are coming toward us.

Despairing soldiers say:”I was no prepared to this, I did not come here to shoot civilians.” The Colonel replies that the Iraki have persuaded the inhabitants to kill the soldiers, that “there are Iraki soldiers disguised as civilians, or ambulances thurned into rolling bombs.”

I have taken a young girl who had the arm pierced by a bullet in the car. Enrico is holding her. At the rear her father is protecting his chest-wounded son who is fainting. The man says to the physician, when behind the front lines, with many gestures to make up for his poor english: “I do not understand, I was walking while holding my two children by the hand. Why didn’t you fire at the sky ? Or at me instead ?”

In Bagdad, McCoy accelerates, he doesn’t take time to search houses one by one. He wants to be first on Heaven Place. The Marines don’t fire on the growing civilian population in the streets. The journey ends with the toppling of Saddam’s statue. There are more journalists than Iraki. The 5 million inhabitants are hiding in their house.”

Obviously for you lost little girl human life is not such a big thing

coyboyusa said on April 22, 2003 13:10:

fredan just so you know there was an article done by the independent press published i believe in news week were soliders describe many situations where kids were playing in the middle of a fire fight with spent rpgs and got shot by both allied and enemy fire..these things happen in war...do u have any idea how many countless civilains died in all the wars of the wrold its nothing new

tevensso (moderator) said on April 22, 2003 13:22:

Getting closer to a shutdown here boys... (and girls).

tevensso (moderator) said on April 22, 2003 21:43:

:)

Ferdan said on April 22, 2003 23:38:

haven’t seen a single flame in this thread yet....

“U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup
Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentI...

Ferdan said on April 23, 2003 14:45:

Of course, old news is what people forgets soon... too soon for my taste

tevensso (moderator) said on April 23, 2003 15:41:

@stillfar: I know, I was thinking of changing my nick to “Terminator”? ;)

Roxrider_USA said on April 24, 2003 15:41:

@Thomas: lol, unbelievable.

Carlos E., New York.

tevensso (moderator) said on April 25, 2003 07:50:

I didn’t say there was flaming, but I saw tendencies of it. It was merely a warning.

Jackie_Radiorox said on May 3, 2003 02:17:

War over? Nah, America will just find someone else to blow up until Baby Bush is out of office.

When’s our next election again? :/

Roxrider_USA said on May 5, 2003 18:06:

Looks like there’s no way to just discuss nicely...

Take care.
Carlos E., New York.