Markuz said on February 14, 2003 15:26:

@Judith: LOL!

@Th_Th: do you really want to discuss this here? Our Ministry of Truth will probably edit/delete our posts in order that they “fit” his political beliefs.

Doubleplusgood! (not...)

Th_Th said on February 14, 2003 16:54:

Personally I feel, that this is a time of big turbulences. The feelings I have inside, I am not even able to put into words, I feel great Sadness and also anger inside.
To get back to my previous statement: Look at the Germans, they are remembered for the 2nd world war forever, even though today they are such a peacfull and peace wanting nation.
I won’t go into details about the current war Issue, as most of us would defend our countries and political leaders, and I think we should not start a war amongst Roxers.
I hate war, I have lost many family members in wars...

zeeshan said on February 14, 2003 18:59:

And I will follow Aaso.

P.S: Isn’t this the offtopic section. Why would they delete such threads now?? If they do then I guess Offtopics forum should be divided into descriminatory sections :D

zeeshan said on February 14, 2003 20:03:

very good!!!!!!!

vaxjoe said on February 15, 2003 05:24:

sweet stalker:why?what happened?

ally77 said on February 15, 2003 14:22:

WAR - NO THANX... POINTLESS STUPID AND DAFT KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE FOR NOTHING.

IF MR BUSH & MR BLAIR WANT A WAR THEN I DON’T MIND IF THEY GO OUT TO THE FRONT LINE WITH THERE OWN CHILDREN... OTHERWISE LEAVE ME OUT OF IT.

nedved said on February 15, 2003 18:05:

OK.
USA will be remember for send the original Americans (the Indians) to reserves.
USA will be remember for have been the only country who has used nuclear weapons.
USA will be remember for kill a lot of people with gas in Vietnam.
USA will be remember for kill people on electric chairs.
USA will be remember for trate black people like second class people.
USA will be remember for all the kids who die at schools for gun shoots....
I can continue.......

Jud (moderator) said on February 15, 2003 18:25:

but hello, get down to Earth, America is not the best place in the world - neither other countries - you are simply not superior as you feel. You are just another country on the planet, with its pros and contras.

coyboyusa said on February 15, 2003 18:33:

lol sorry when i get frustrated i spit out alot of typos...i never siad my country is superior to anyone..in many areas we are in others we are not...but for someoen to try and make my counrty out to be this great big evil without looking at what their own peopel have done is VERY hypocritical...lets just deal with the issues at hand

Aaso said on February 15, 2003 18:37:

2 Coyboy USA : are you feeling any response for IRAQi people?? Is there any diffrence?? Saddam use gas on them or USA ?? The only who lose are them....!!!!!!!!!!

coyboyusa said on February 15, 2003 18:43:

america isn’t going to gas the iraqi people now you are just being plain stupid and as for the gas used in vietnam it killed hundreds and hundres of us soldiers as well and when the chemical was banned it was burriews here in my country in places hwere they build communites and lotsa of peopel were sickened so please get ur facts straight...saddam also used nerve gas on iranians during his war with them

coyboyusa said on February 15, 2003 18:51:

i’m not judginy by tv i am talkig fromt he experience of peopel i have spoken to who came from such countries :)

btw american meadia isn’t the only ones that are messed up :)

nedved said on February 15, 2003 18:52:

@Coyboy, your ignorance is amazing.
Don’t you know how many good things muslims have made along centuries? If you don’t know, the numbers we use come from muslims. Do you know the things the Persian doctors discovered for the medicine? Of course you know nothing.
And let me tell you one thing, if your country exists is thank to us (Europe). Never forget it.

coyboyusa said on February 15, 2003 18:55:

oh and numbers and the alphabet and ,math were discovered by the chinese and asians long before most of the civilized world as was elements of medicine astronomy etc

Aaso said on February 15, 2003 19:02:

.

Aaso said on February 15, 2003 19:05:

But I can not let myself to talk about any religion like that!!!!!!!!

nedved said on February 15, 2003 19:22:

ok, coyboy, so you are a wise man LOL
Write an History book, then!

wendy said on February 15, 2003 20:59:

Bush.... Every American president wants war....war war war war war war war war

I don’t think he’s better then Saddam Hoesein............

Santi said on February 15, 2003 21:55:

@Littlespooky: Maybe she means that Bush jr. wants to win the war his father could not at any price :p

nedved said on February 15, 2003 22:28:

@wendy, I agree with you. He isn’t better than Sadam!
@Littlespooky, hey, take it easy. Don’t take things so seriously. They’re just opinions.

Santi said on February 15, 2003 22:56:

And just in case no one understands why Europe is against and UK wants this war too... in European Union we all should know by now that UK in this kind of things is USA in “half-European” disguise, and has always been. Just remember that De Gaulle (French president) didn’t want UK inside EEC because he said “It’s to have the economical enemy inside home”.
I think the correct way of dealing with this is the European Union way. If we forget Spain and UK, that’s it...

Santi said on February 15, 2003 23:06:

Zee: Please, before answering read it all...

Roxrider_USA said on February 15, 2003 23:55:

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.
The world is sick ’cause people are sick.
Stop inaffective discussions that will never halt people’s insanity.
Please, just reliaze that it’s all our fault.
We’re humans!
And humans are flawed.
Beautiful yet dangerous.
Interests come first in the human-being mind.
That’s the way it is. Won’t change.
And, as we know, whoever has more power will always get what they want.
Others, will just watch.
We are complex! Understand.
Complexity brings about conflicts!
Struggles.
The human history since it’s begining is written in blood.
Let me tell you, encyclopedias illustrating our far more evil than good history have been written in tears and blood.
This time, it’s not different.
It’s just another chapter...
Sad or nice...
It’s just like that!

We’re humans!!!

Hope that the US and UK are right. If, they are, we will thank them. But, if they’re wrong, this will only be another chapter in human history.

Take care, friends!
Carlos E., New York.

sweet_stalker57 said on February 16, 2003 02:02:

Judith, that’s like my “ever revolving never evolving” theory! :)
we are no longer moving FORWARD, just kinda
growing sideways like a fat lady watching soap
operas on the couch eating bon bons.

vaxjoe, a certain member of TDR said some
bad things about muslims and it got deleted.
I can’t seem to remember who said it tho’ ;)

Santi said on February 16, 2003 10:41:

@Judith: Evolution never stops, it’s working right now, have worked always and will forever work! :p

@Zeeshan: Well, and you missed more things. I’ll have to quote myself: “Saddam Hussein is a bad person, it’s a shame for Muslims”. I don’t think muslims are all the same and I got something about “Terrorism”. I’m a Basque, what means that when I was in school in Spain everytime ETA killed someone people looked at me as if I was one of them. I know not everyone is like the terrorists who kill because I’ve been in that situation. I doubt a lot that people have blamed you and have told you everyone like you should be dead in your own town.
I know for sure not all the people is the same, but muslims are more than 1000 million people and it’s statistically fair to think there must be quite a lot fanatics inside that community. I didn’t say most of them are fanatics... just that there are many. The word “MANY” doesn’t mean anything, mean more than 1000? More than 10000? More than 100000? Is that a lot for you? Do you really believe all muslims are peace loving? You’re a bit too naïve if so.
The same that I would be if I believed Christians are peace loving. But I’m not a Christian nor do I believe in any religion. What you say that doesn’t take religion to exist fanatics is not right. My neighbours are Christian fundamentalists and there are a lot like them in the world. When it’s necessary that you believe in something without any prove, anything that needs “FAITH” leads to fundamentalist in some way. You have to be very very much yourself to get rid of that, to be tolerant when in your church they are saying that the ones that don’t believe in the same are intrinsically bad and should be condemned. And to be yourself you just can get it thru knowledge, and many people doesn’t have the knowledge and are manipulated.
But don’t think I’m just talking about the muslims. The USA act many times like Christian fundamentalists.

Anyway you shouldn’t miss the point that this war is economical. Why USA and not the others? C’mon, are you so naïve?? Really?
Let’s see: The most powerful army in the world (Do you really think Sweden can face a war against muslims?? Their population is just 8 million people, imagine how many they are in the army!), the most powerful economy in the world (they do depend on oil much more than any other country, they are the first that don’t want to change this kind of economy because it has lead them to the top on the world... and they can pay the bill for a war, don’t forget), they suffered 5 attacks in one day by people who is just like Saddam Hussein (and I don’t mean with it muslim, but “fanatic leaders”), and last but not least, they are the empire. You, yourself have studied English... do you wonder why? It’s the language of the empire, just like Latin was so important centuries ago because it was the language of the empire. Romans ruled the world, americans are on their way (the main difference is that Romans was a militar and politic empire and USA is an economic and militar empire).

I hope now you understand my point...

Aaso said on February 16, 2003 13:54:

2 Zee : Oh... I missed it :(( But you boy. well done!!! LOL

As a matter of fact I know who SUPPORTed IRAQ to attack Iran. I’m in war site. So I can feel it with every part of my body! I can see people who got so many diseases (such as lung canser) because of those sh**t gas... and I do know who SUPPORTED Osama Bin Laden at first and I DO KNOW WHO SOPURTS ALL THE STORY THAT GOES ON IN OCCUPIED PALESTINE. And Also I Know Who Will SUPPORT all the terrorism and all the Sh**t groupes that ever may gather in the world in future!!!!

Aaso said on February 16, 2003 16:17:

Just spend 10 minutes to check this out.....

CNN’s interview with President Khatami

January 7, 1998

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, a month ago you announced that you had a historic message to deliver to the people of America. I understand that message will take the form of a short address and then we’ll discuss the issues.

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. A t the outset, I would like to congratulate all free and noble women and m en especially the followers of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), on the occasion of the New Year. I take as a good omen the concurrence of the C hristian New Year with the Islamic month of Ramadan, the month of edification and self-restraint that has been the goal of all divine prophets

We are at the close of the 20th century, leaving behind a century full of inequality, violence, and conflict. We pray to the Almighty to enable us to begin a new century of humanity, understanding, and durable peace , so that all humanity would enjoy the blessings of life. Once again I would like to present my felicitations to all the followers of Jesus Ch rist, to all human beings, and particularly to the American people.

I have said earlier that I respect the great American people. In this short span of time, I wish to briefly present my analysis of the American civilization so that my remarks would not be taken as political nicety or a mere play on words.

The American civilization is worthy of respect. When we appreciate the roots of this civilization, its significance becomes even more apparent. As you know, in Plymouth, Massachusetts, there is a rock which is respect ed and revered by all Americans. The secret of American civilization lies in this rock. In early 17th century, those 125 men, women, and children who left England in search of a virgin land to establish a superior civilization finally landed on this rock. The reason why the American people respect this rock is that it was the place where the Puritan pilgrims first landed. From then on, the Americans celebrate the last Thursd ay of November as Thanksgiving Day, thanking God for this success bestowed upon them.

The American civilization is founded upon the vision, thinking, and manners of the Puritans. Certainly, others such as adventurers, those search ing for gold, and even sea pirates, also arrived in the U.S. But the Am erican nation has never celebrated their arrival and never considered i t to be the beginning of their civilization. The Puritans constituted a religious sect whose vision and characteristics, in addition to worshi pping God, was in harmony with republicanism, democracy, and freedom. T hey found the European climate too restrictive for the implementation of their ideas and thoughts.

Unfortunately, in the 16th, 17th, and even 18th centuries, there was a se rious clash between religion and liberty. In my opinion, one of the big gest tragedies in human history is this confrontation between religion and liberty which is to the detriment of religion, liberty, and the hum an beings who deserve to have both. The Puritans desired a system which combined the worship of God and human dignity and freedom.

This civilization was founded in New England and gradually spread to the entire America and it even clashed with certain evil trends which has caused slavery in certain states and ultimately succeeded in abolishing slavery. There were numerous martyrs who gave their lives for this cause, the most famous of which was Abraham Lincoln, the strong and fair-minded American president.

This civilization is best described by the renowned French sociologist Alexi de Toqueville who spent some two years in the U.S. in the 19th cent ury and wrote the valuable book entitled Democracy in America, which I am sure most Americans have read. This book reflects the virtuous and h uman side of this civilization. In his view, the significance of this c ivilization is in the fact that liberty found religion as a cradle for its growth, and religion found protection of liberty as its divine call ing. Therefore, liberty and faith never clashed. And as we see, even tod ay Americans are a religious people. Therefore, the Anglo-American appr oach to religion relies on the principle that religion and liberty are consistent and compatible. I believe that if humanity is looking for ha ppiness, it should combine religious spirituality with the virtues of lib erty.

And it is for this reason that I say I respect the American nation becaus e of their great civilization. This respect is due to two reasons: the essence and pillars of the Anglo-American civilization and the dialogue among the civilizations.

You are cognizant of the great heritage of the Iranian nation with its gl orious civilization and culture. Irans glorious civilization was concur rent with the Greek city states and the Roman Empire. After the advent of Islam, the Iranians ardently embraced it. The blend of Iranian talen ts and the sublime Islamic teachings was a miracle. Without intending to deny the share of other nations in the formation of the Islamic civil ization, I believe the great Iranian civilization had a major role in developing and promoting the Islamic system.

Over the past two centuries, the Iranian nation has striven to establish liberty, independence and a noble way of life. The Constitutional Movem ent colonialism. Ultimately, the Islamic Revolution had-and should have- two directions: First, an interpretation of religion which couples religiosity with liberty. Of course, now that four centuries have passed si nce the beginning of the American civilization, human experience has ta ught us that prosperous life should hinge on three pillars: religiosity, liberty, and justice. These are the assets and aspirations of the Islamic Revolution as it enters the 21st century.

In terms of the dialogue of civilizations, we intend to benefit from the achievements and experiences of all civilizations, Western and non-West ern, and to hold dialogue with them. The closer the pillars and essence s of these two civilizations are, the easier the dialogue would become. With our revolution, we are experiencing a new phase of reconstruction of civilization. We feel that what we seek is what the founders of the American civilization were also pursuing four centuries ago. This is w hy we sense an intellectual affinity with the essence of the American civilization.

Second, there is the issue of the independence. The American nation was t he harbinger of independence struggles, the initiator of efforts to est ablish independence, for whose cause it has offered many sacrifices, le ading ultimately to the Declaration of Independence which is an importa nt document on human dignity and rights.

Finally, I should refer to the struggles of the Iranian people over the l ast two centuries which culminated in the quest for independence during the Islamic Revolution launched by Imam Khomeini. When Imam Khomeini l aunched the revolution, Iran was in a terrible condition. In other word s, the Iranian nation had been humiliated and its fate was decided by o thers. You know that a remarkable feature of Imam Khomeinis struggle wa s his fight against capitulation which the Shah was forced to ratify ma king the American advisors immune from prosecution in Iran. This was th e worst humiliation for our people. They rose up, fought for independen ce, and emerged victorious. Of course, the war of the revolution was on e of words not weapons. We, therefore, endeavored to obtain a novel exp erience of religion and to gain independence. Both these features are s alient in the American civilization and we feel close to them.

But here I have to express pity over a tragedy which has occurred. Unfo rtunately, policies pursued by American politicians outside the United States over the past half a century since World War II are incompatible w ith the American civilization which is founded on democracy, freedom an d human dignity. We ardently wished that those who enforced this foreig n policy were representatives of the prominent American civilization; a civilization which was achieved at a heavy cost, and not the representat ives of those adventurers who were defeated by the American people them selves.

This flawed policy of domination had three setbacks: One was severe damag es that it incurred upon the deprived and oppressed nations, including our own. The other setback was that it dashed the hopes of the people o f the colonized world, who had placed their trust in the U.S. tradition of struggle for independence. When the policies for domination were im plemented in the name of the American people, the nations lost their tr ust in the Americans. This represents a grave damage done by the U.S. p olicies on the American nation. The Third and most important of these s etbacks is that what was implemented was done in name of a great people that had risen for freedom. I feel that the American politicians shoul d realize this fact and adjust themselves with the standards of Anglo-A merican and American civilization and at least apologize to their own p eople because of the approach they have adopted.

AMANPOUR: You said that you wanted to use this interview to deliver a mes sage to the American people. I’ve lived in America, and I know the conc erns of the average American when it comes to Iran. And its the message that has come out of Iran for the last twenty years, the message; host age taking, the message of death to America, the message of burning the American flag, the message that almost looks like Islam has declared a war against America and the west. Let me ask you first about the hostag e crisis which is emblazoned in every American’s mind. As you know, in all revolutions, the communist revolution in Russia, the French revolut ion, perhaps even the American revolution, the early years contain many excesses. Would you say that taking the American hostages, at the begi nning of the Iranian Islamic revolution falls into the category of early revolutionary excesses?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: Thank you for your question. I believe that first we have to analyze events within their proper context and with circumspect ion. The image of Islam which has been presented, and I dont want to ac cuse anyone here, has been an erroneous one. Islam is a religion which calls all humanity, irrespective of religion or belief, to rationality and logic. Islam invites followers of all divine religions to unite aro und God worship and all Muslims to fraternity. The Islam which we know and practice and founded our revolution on recognized the right of all human beings to determine their own destiny. It declares that relations among nations must be based on logic and mutual respect. Such Islam is enemy to no nation, enemy to no religion. It seeks dialogue, understan ding and peace with all nations. One of the major flaws in the U.S. for eign policy, which I recently construed as being behind times, is that they continue to live with cold war mentality and try to create a perceiv ed enemy. Here I dont wish to insult anyone. I know that there are quite a few wise and fair-minded statesmen in the United States, but the outc ome of the interplay with the U.S. policy has shaped the U.S. policy in a manner that continues to be a prisoner of cold war mentality. After the collapse of communism, there has been an attempt by certain circles to portray Islam as the new enemy, and regrettably they are targeting progressive Islam rather than certain regressive interpretations of Isl am. They attack an Islam which seeks democracy, progress and developmen t; an Islam which calls for utilization of achievements of human civili zation including that of the west.

With regard to the hostage issue which you raised, I do know that the fee lings of the great American people have been hurt, and of course I regr et it. Yet, these same feelings were also hurt when bodies of young Ame ricans were brought back from Vietnam, but the American people never bl amed the Vietnamese people, but rather blamed their own politicians for dragging their country and its youth into the Vietnam quagmire. The pr essure by the American people terminated that senseless and inhuman war 2E In fact the American people themselves brought that war to an end.

The feelings of our people were seriously hurt by U.S. policies. And as y ou said, in the heat of the revolutionary fervor, things happen which c annot be fully contained or judged according to usual norms. This was the crying out of the people against humiliations and inequities imposed u pon them by the policies of the U.S. and others, particularly in the ea rly days of the revolution. With the grace of God, today our new societ y has been institutionalized and we have a popularly elected powerful g overnment, and there is no need for unconventional methods of expressio n of concerns and anxieties. And I believe when there is logic, especia lly when there are receptive ears, there is no need other than discours e, debate and dialogue.

AMANPOUR: So, are you saying that despite the grievances that you talk ab out, with hindsight, if you had to do this all again, would Iran have d one it differently at that time?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: As I said, everything must be analyzed within its own context. The events of those days must be viewed within the context of revolutionary fervor and the pressures to which the Iranian nation was subjected, causing it to seek a way to express its anxieties and conce rns. Today we are in the period of stability, and fully adhere to all n orms of conduct regulating relations between nations and governments.

With the grace of God, today all the affairs of country are being conduct ed within the framework of law. And as I have stated, both in domestic a nd foreign affairs, we shall endeavor to strengthen the rule of law in every respect.

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, Americans, the average American, is familiar wit h one image of Iran, death to America, the burning of the American flag , and as we talked about, the hostages. You talk about a new chapter in relations between the peoples of the world. What can you say to the Am ericans listening tonight, to show that person that your Iran is a new Iran or a different Iran?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: I say that these issues should be examined with due consideration to their root causes and various dimensions. There are slo gans being changed in Iran. But, you as a journalist can ask all those chanting the slogans whether they are targeting the American people. An d they would all say no. Not only we do not harbor any ill wishes for t he American people, but in fact we consider them to be great nation. Ou r aim is not even to destroy or undermine the American government. Thes e slogans symbolize a desire to terminate a mode of relations which exi sted between Iran and the United States. This is a response to that gra ve affront by a former U.S. defense secretary who said the Iranian nati on must be rooted out. It is also a response to the downing of the Iran ian airliner that killed about 300 innocent people, mostly women and ch ildren. Even if we accept that the shooting was accidental, the decorati on of the commander of the American naval vessel responsible for the tr agedy was indeed adding insult to injury. There is also the recent alloca tion $20 million by the U.S. Congress to topple the Iranian government. Our people consider U.S. foreign policy to be aimed at undermining and confrontation with itself. And, in fact, they want the death of this r elationship. No one has the intention of insulting the American nation and we even consider the U.S. government as the legitimate and lawful r epresentative American flag, which represents its nationhood, and which hurts the collective feelings of the nation. As far as I know, the Lea der of the Revolution and other authorities are also not happy with thi s practice. There might be actions taking place that might not meet wit h your approval. Yet I am sure that those doing such actions do not int end to insult the American people. And we hope that actions which might be interpreted as anti-American people and nation would not take place.

AMANPOUR: You say that you want to talk to the American people. Are you prepared to sit down eventually and talk to the American government abou t the issues that you have just mentioned tonight that separate and div ide you?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: Firstly, nothing should prevent dialogue and understa nding between two nations, especially between their scholars and thinke rs. Right now, I recommend the exchange of professors, writers, scholar s, artists, journalists, and tourists. A large number of educated and nob le Iranians now reside in the U.S. as representatives of the Iranian na tion. This shows that there is no hostility between the two nations. Bu t the dialogue between civilizations and nations is different from poli tical relations. In regard to political relations, we have to consider the factors which lead to the severance of relations. If some day anoth er situation is to emerge, we must definitely consider the roots and re levant factors and try to eliminate them.

Firstly, I have to state that U.S. foreign policy behavior toward Iran ha s inflicted damages upon us. But is also had a positive effect. It caus ed us to mainly focus on our domestic capabilities and resources to adv ance our objectives. Now, too, we feel no need for ties with the U.S., especially as the modern world is so diverse and plural that we can rea ch our objectives without U.S. assistance. I especially feel that many progressive countries-including the Europeans- are far more advanced in their foreign policies than the U.S.. We are carrying out our own acti vities and have no need for political ties with the United States.

But the point is that the political behavior of governments should not de prive nations from enjoying the opportunities provided by each side. Th ere is a bulky wall of mistrust between us and the U.S. Administration, a mistrust rooted in improper behaviors of the American governments. As an example of this type of U.S. behavior, I should refer to admitted in volvement of the U.S. Government in the 1953 coup detat which toppled M osaddeqs national government, immediately followed by a $45 million loa n to strengthen unpopular foreign installed Government. I should also r efer to the Capitulation Law imposed by the U.S. on Iran.

The attitude of the U.S. after the victory of the revolution has not been a civilized one. They have adopted a hostile policy against Iran. They have tried to inflict economic damage upon us, a clear example of whi ch is the DAmato act which represents a continuation of cold war mental ity and the lack of appreciation of realities to the point that they ev en want to impose their will upon other countries such as European coun tries and Japan or the allocation of the already mentioned $20 million to topple the Iranian government.

The success of our revolution has come at a great cost to our nation. And the U.S. has a major share in the cost imposed upon the Iranian nation 2E There is a grave mistrust between us. If negotiations are not based on mutual respect, they will never lead to positive results. The condi tion is that American foreign policy should abandon its instrumental ra tionality and stop considering adopt an approach based on communicative r ationality which is inherent in the American civilization.

There must first be a crack in this wall of mistrust to prepare for a cha nge and create an opportunity to study a new situation. Unfortunately, the behavior of American Government in the past up to this date has alw ays exacerbated the climate of mistrust and we do not detect any sign o f change of behavior.

We are looking for a world in which misunderstandings can be overcome, na tions can understand one another and mutual respect and logic govern re lations among states. It is the right of every nation to stand on its p rinciples and values and have the expectation of respect and dignity fr om others.

AMANPOUR: Then where does this dialogue, this message to the people of th e United States lead?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: When I speak of dialogue, I intend dialogue between civilizations and cultures. Such discourse should be centered around thi nkers and intellectuals. I believe that all doors should now be opened for such dialogue and understanding and possibilities for contact even between American understanding between our two nations, a better future f or both countries and nations may be forged.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you some specific issues that concern the people of the United States. As you know, many U.S experts say that the evidence is overwhelming, that elements of the Iranian authorities, Iranian offi cials, provide not only political and moral, but financial support to o rganizations that commit acts of terrorism, and result in the deaths of innocent women and children. If you were presented with proof and with evidence that any kind of Iranian was involved in that kind of financi al support or act, what would you do about it?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: You see, this is another example of the sort of probl em that exists between us and the United States. They first level unfai r and unsubstantiated accusations against you. And when they propose to hold talks, they say that they want to have a dialogue with you about these very unfounded accusations. They are in fact trying to put the ot her side on trial.

Well, let me tell you this. We believe in the holy Quran that says: slayi ng of one innocent person is tantamount to the slaying of all humanity. How could such a religion, and those who claim to be its followers get involved in the assassination of innocent individuals and the slaughter of innocent human beings. We categorically reject all these allegation s.

Secondly, the logic of history has proven that violence is not the way to achieve desired end. I personally believe that only those who lack log ic resort to violence. Terrorism should be condemned in all its forms a nd manifestations; assassins must be condemned. Terrorism is useless an yway and we condemn it categorically. Those who level these charges aga inst us are best advised to provide accurate and objective evidence, wh ich indeed does not exist.

AMANPOUR: If you were provided with the proof that an Iranian official ha d used any kind of Iranian funds to reward or finance any group or indi vidual that was involved in an act of terrorism, would you punish that person or that organization?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: Certainly if I learn of any instance of such assistan ce to terrorism, I shall deal with it, so will our Leader, and so will our entire system. At the same time, supporting peoples who fight for t he liberation of their land is not, in my opinion, supporting terrorism 2E It is, in fact, supporting those who are engaged in combating state terrorism. AMANPOUR: Regardless of the motive, do you believe that killi ng innocent women and children is terrorism, as for instance what happe ns on the streets of Israel?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: It is definitely so. Any form of killing of innocent men and women who are not involved in confrontations is terrorism; it m ust be condemned, and we, in our term, condemn every form of it in the world.

AMANPOUR: Americans say that they have reports that Iranian officials abr oad regularly engage in acts of surveillance against Americans, the sor t of surveillance that could be interpreted as preceeding an attack. Do you think that is appropriate?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: I deny this categorically. On our part there has been no new move, no special measures with regard to the United States in e xternal fields; this is another false rumor spread by those who bear a grudge against us.

AMANPOUR: Iran has said that it doesn’t agree with the Middle East peace process. Yasser Arafat was elected as a representative of the Palestini an legitimate aims. And he has entered into a peace process. Do you thin k that it is appropriate for any foreign power to engage in supporting the groups that are fighting against Yasser Arafat – the groups such a s Hamas and others?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: First of all, we have declared our opposition to the M iddle East peace process because we believe it will not succeed. At the same time, we have clearly said that we dont intend to impose our view s on others or to stand in their way. In our view all Palestinians have the right to express their views about their land, including the milli ons of Palestinians in Diaspora. They too have a right to self determin ation. Only then can there be a lasting peace. We seek a peace through which Jews, Muslims and Christians, and indeed each and every Palestini an, could freely determine their own destiny. And we are prepared to co ntribute towards the realization of that peace.

But let me elaborate a little for the American people on my views about U 2ES. Middle East policy. Anti-semitism is indeed a western phenomenon. It has no precedence in Islam or in the east. Jews and Muslims have li ved harmoniously together for centuries. In the east, we have had despo tism and dictatorship, but never had fascism or nazism. These, too, are also western phenomena, and the west has paid dearly to combat them. What concerns me is that, first, this western anti-semitism has turned i nto a tool for the imposition of a whole range of improper policies and practices on the people of the Middle East and Muslims in general. Sec ondly, I am concerned that this western dilemma may be projected elsewh ere, that is fascism and nazism are suppressed in the west, they may re surface in another form in western policies elsewhere.

Obviously, Washington is the U.S. capital where policy decision on U.S. national interests must be made. However, the impression of the people o f the Middle East and Muslims in general is that certain foreign policy decisions of the U.S. are in fact made in Tel Aviv and not in Washingt on. And I regret to say that the improper American policy of unbridled support for the aggressions of a racist terrorist regime does not serve U.S. interests, nor does it even serve that of the Jewish people. Zion ists constitute a small portion of the Jewish people and have openly de clared and proven in practice that they are expansionist. The Israeli i ntransigence in the course of the current peace process, and its failur e to honor its own undertakings has enraged even U.S. allies in the reg ion. In my view, peace can come to the Middle East when all Palestinian s, Jews and Muslims alike, can determine the future of the land. That s hould include those living in Palestine as well as those refugees living elsewhere. Only then can a stable and lasting peace be established. Many in the world might share our view, and many may differ with us. We sim ply present our opinion, and have the greatest respect for all Palestin ians who are concerned about the future of Palestine. Meanwhile, we bel ieve the United States should not risk the substantial prestige and cre dibility of the American people on supporting a racist regime which doe s not even have the backing of the Jewish people.

The subject of Middle East peace is one that needs a sober and pragmatic analysis. We believe that it will not succeed, because it is not just a nd it does not address the rights of all parties in an equitable manner 2E We are prepared to contribute to an international effort to bring a bout a just and lasting peace in the Middle East.

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, you know another concern of the west is Iran’s n uclear program. Would you consider entering a special agreement, a spec ial sort of situation with the atomic energy agency, for special monito ring, if that would lessen the fears of the people you say you want to have a better dialogue with?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: We are a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treat y. The official representatives of the International Atomic Energy Agen cy have inspected our facilities in Iran several times, and have public ly declined that we are not planning on building nuclear weapons and on ly aim to employ nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. It is ironic tha t those who are so concerned about saving humanity from nuclear weapons , fully support Israel which is a nuclear power and is unwilling to joi n the NPT or accept IAEA safeguards, while leveling allegations against Iran which has not even been able to complete its first nuclear power plant which began before the revolution. These are all pretexts for imp osing certain policies on Iran and the region and to create panic and m istrust. We are not a nuclear power and do not intend to become one. We have accepted IAEA safeguards and our facilities are routinely inspected by that agency.

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, you are the president of Iran. You have made cer tain promises to the people of Iran, and now you have said certain thin gs about dialogue with other countries. Can you implement your promises to the people of Iran? Do you have the authority and the room to maneu ver? And in foreign policy, are you able to implement foreign policy?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: Surely, after being elected, one should abide by ones promises and not to retract on them. I am determined to fulfill my pro mises and I believe the atmosphere is conducive and would improve day b y day. Each person will carry out his tasks in his legal capacity. The President shoulders the important task of enforcing the Constitution. I have set up a Constitution Monitoring Group for the first time ever an d this group is actively working to locate instances of violations or i ncorrect enforcement of the Constitution. We will be seriously address any shortcoming in the implementation or violation of the Constitution. And we shall succeed. Iran has one government which makes decisions o n domestic and foreign policies within the framework of its duties. Of course, there are many issues that should be approved by the Parliament. The overall policies are determined by the eminent Leadership. But it i s the government that has to enforce them. I feel there is no barrier a long the way of the government authority and the government accepts it own responsibility. We will surely implement any policy that we formula te. It is possible that preliminary steps in certain areas might need t ime. But when we arrive at a policy, we will definitely carry it out. T he government is responsible to carry out duties associated with its so vereign responsibilities in the society.

AMANPOUR: There is quite a lot of opposition from the conservative factio n. How are you able to operate within this climate?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: When we speak of democratic government, or government of the people, it means that we accept opposition. We cannot possibly have a society with no opposition at all. Such differences of opinion are natural and they are to be found in all societies. We should learn not to allow such differences to turn into confrontation, but to direct them into their legal channels. Certainly there are elements who are o pposing our government, but so long as their opposition is practiced wi thin the provisions of the Constitution, we certainly respect them. But those wishing to impose their will against the law will naturally be d ealt with through the proper legal channels. We accept both internal differences as well as any opposition that accepts the Constitutional f ramework, even if they openly oppose the government.

AMANPOUR: On the one hand, a lot of people want more openess, more freedo m for all the things that you have even talked about. You are also appo inting reform-minded ministers. On the other hand, there are still, i f I could call them thugs, who are on the streets, interfering with wom en who they don’t like their appearance, preventing certain professors from going to school. There is a confrontation. Where can you lead this confrontation?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: I do not consider this a serious conflict. Of course, there are various tendencies, which were present during the elections as well. The people have made their decision. What I have said and cont inue to insist on is that rule of law should be paramount, and no one sho uld consider himself above the law and try to impose his views on other s. Some of these frictions are quite natural in a democratic society. O ur objective is to bring everything within the framework of the law. Th ere may be occasional irregularities and actions outside the legal fram ework. But we will spare no effort to institutionalize the rule of law. Of course, to begin with, we have to create understanding amongst ours elves and learn to tolerate each other. You cannot bring about understa nding and tolerance in the society by force. We are determined that the re should only be one government in the society by force. We are determ ined that there should only be one government in the society and every one must submit to the law. I think that it is universally accepted that law is the basis of social order. Fortunately, our leader fully subscri bes to this view. I hope that we can take more and more practical steps for the realization of the rule of law in our society.

AMANPOUR: Nonetheless there are two factions that seem to have been ident ified in Iran right now. The more conservative and the one that you lea d, the reform minded, the more moderate. Where do you think that Iran w ill be one year from now? Will there be the freedoms and openess that y ou have talked about?

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: Let these divisions find their meanings within their own context. Terms such as conservative, moderate and the like are more o ften meaningful in the West. Of course we have differences of opinion i n Iran too, and one political tendency firmly believes in the prevalen ce of logic and the rule of law while there might be another tendency t hat believes it is entitled to go beyond the law. Anyway, such issues n eed tolerance and we must try to bring about such an understanding as t o enable us to stay together while having differences of view but not l et things become chaotic. Should we carefully prepare the ground for th e implementation of the law in our society, there shall be no problem v is-a-vis such oppositions. I consider them natural and we need not worr y about it. Of course reaching an ideal society with all its affairs in proper order needs time. We have the necessary patience, so do our peo ple and we shall all try to move towards an orderly society where logic a nd law reign supreme.

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, thank you very much for joining us.

PRESIDENT KHATAMI: I thank you very much and I thank all dear viewers for their patience.

............

camillarox said on February 16, 2003 18:36:

@LS and CBU: you people are funny - no offence - or I should maybe say your reactions seem to be a bit childish. They remind me of the children I teach. They are 10 years old, the typical “if we don’t play at this game, i go” or “if you don’t lend me your doll I am not your friend anymore”. Thanks for making me laugh :)

I don’t think there’s a need to close this discussion, using your arguments, CBU, if you don’t like what’s written here, don’t read it ;)

Besides that, it all seems to be either black or white. People at the other side of the sea don’t hate you - you are a bit paranoic - we just don’t like some of the political decisions that your goverment is taking. And we like other things from your country. And this applies to all the countries. I don’t like some of the politics in some countries, and I critisise them when it is the moment to do so. Of course there’s positive things in your country, but there are also bad ones, that you don’t like to be reminded of that? Well, then I am sorry. Go back to your bubble and be happy there :)

And since we like so much to go back to the past, may I remind you that all big empires (even though I would not call empire to the States) have had big successful years... and then due to their ambitions, they have sunk dramatically. Where are romans, or where are the nazionalsocialists (as to mention some) ? So ... too much stretching the rope... it ends up breaking.

Peace & Love!

Vixzter said on February 16, 2003 20:10:

and people wonder why wars start in the first place......take a look at the posts in this topic and maybe we’ll all see why.

Jud (moderator) said on February 16, 2003 23:58:

Nice words from Madonna, who is recording her new video, American Life with Jonas Akerlund in Los Angeles. Rumours said that she critizises war there, and people started to tell that she was anti-America and anti-Bush, here’s her statement:

“I feel lucky to be an American citizen for many reasons - one of which is the right to express myself freely, especially in my work.
I understand that there have been reports about my upcoming video “American Life” in the media - much of which is inaccurate. I am not Anti-Bush. I am not pro-Iraq. I am pro Peace. I have written a song and created a video which expresses my feelings about our culture and values and the illusions of what many people believe is the American dream - the perfect life. As an artist, I hope that this provokes thought and dialogue. I don’t expect everyone to agree with my point of view. I am grateful to have the freedom to express these feelings and that’s how I honor my country.”

So that’s what we (still) have, freedom to express what we feel, what we think. As Camilla said, being against an attack against Iraq doesn’t mean we don’t like America. It just means that we want Peace.

sweet_stalker57 said on February 18, 2003 02:01:

we are all with you cowboy... until you start that muslim stuff that is.

and give this a try:

http://www.spelling.hemscott.net/

=)

LittleSpooky said on February 18, 2003 18:11:

Sweets: You’re terrible ;o)