purplemedusa said on September 14, 2005 23:04:

Religion & spirituality is two VERY different things!!

purplemedusa said on September 15, 2005 00:18:

;)

We need to believe in something... i believe in the Beatles... urm (correction) Her Mystery.

Santi said on September 15, 2005 07:08:

This thread is a repetition of:

http://www2.dailyroxette.com/smalltalk/thread.php/7918?p=1

Most of us discussed very long about this time ago here. If you’re interested in knowing what the more veterans had to say on this you should check that link out. It has very nice explanations, at least I like the explanations I gave and I still fully agree with any one of them! :D

EDIT:
In reply to the previous post.
So basically if I understood it well, handicapped people like my brother that have to endure a life of pain are basically to blame for their condition, because your all loving God wants him to learn a lesson that lasts so far 28 years. Seriously, that is such a BIG BULLSHIT that I really gotta write it with all the letters of the word and in all-caps.
If there was a god (why just one, anyway...) and he was like this and like what they describe her/him/it on the Bible, it’s by far the most sadistic being ever imagined.

ally77 said on September 16, 2005 13:16:

Yes!

Kathrin said on September 16, 2005 15:10:

I am Catholic and Baptist(I’m member of the baptist church and member of the catholic church) which means I believe in both conventions!

Oldag75 said on September 17, 2005 20:30:

Creation? Evolution? Some of us have faith in one, many believe in the other, and perhaps some day we all will know the truth. Until proven wrong, here is what I think:
Everything in this universe – matter, energy, forces, light and perhaps other attributes not yet discovered, and with the possible exceptions of space and time – all began in a single form, in a dense state so tiny we cannot fathom it.
This manifestation then exploded in an event we call the Big Bang, which shattered that single whole into numerous separate expressions: matter, energy, forces, light and, perhaps, space-time. Intuition suggests space and time were the pre-existing stage upon which the theater of this universe is to be played out, but consistency in reasoning insists space-time also was part of this original whole. God only knows.
History is rife with demonstrations that matter and energy are the same thing in different forms. The gravity force collected swirling atoms and crushed them into stars, to yield heat and other effects (such as radio waves). Cave people converted wood into campfire warmth, and slightly more developed folks later altered uranium into more potent warmth. It is perfectly logical to conclude, simplistic as this sounds, that everything in the universe is merely a different expression of everything else.
And what of “life”? I think life is one of the original forces, like gravity and electromagnetism, which were compacted into that initial singularity then splintered by the Big Bang. As gravity is the power drawing matter to other matter, and magnetism the motivation for a compass needle to point north, life is the creative force in our universe, the designing force, the force with a purpose.
The entity we consider, in numerous religions, our Creator – the original Life force – was a component of that initial mix. Our Creator allowed itself to be blown apart at some point after igniting the Big Bang; that Creator apparently stayed intact long enough to establish multitudes of ineluctable physical and geometric regulations, such as inertia, multiplication tables and the Pythagorean theorem. Our Creator then fragmented itself throughout the universe, bent upon introducing animation and motivation to specific substances we call organic material.
Accordingly, a splinter of God now resides in each manifestation of life, in every living entity, virus, plant, animal, person, you name it, each of these lives blessed with free will and impelled toward progress of some sort: advancement toward mere reproduction in many cases, and toward higher purposes for others who have mastered (to lesser or greater degrees) the basic survival and propagation problems.
Life seeks environments in our universe amenable to its will to exercise power over inanimate matter, and Earth happens to be one of those locales – our biosphere is abundant with the necessary conditions and fuels. At a point after our planet formed, life took charge of basic chemical building blocks, combined them to form organic material and blossomed forth. That evolutionary process began with, perhaps, nucleotides foaming on the ocean, then steadily moved forward.
Biologists have observed that certain organelles – “little organs” within cells, such as mitochondria – occasionally spring into being seemingly spontaneously. This indicates that our life force, at its most fundamental level, is eminently capable of creating from matter the mechanisms it requires.
We have no reason to conclude that the life which exists on Earth is unique. As life literally teems upon our planet, it is abundant throughout the universe. We simply have not encountered any of our fellow life-creatures elsewhere – yet.
In the context of this existence, given nature’s demonstrated impartiality throughout the cosmic theater, it is perfectly logical to postulate that the behavior of each life during its finite tenure here has no bearing upon the state each life will attain after it abandons its organic manifestation – that is, dies. Following “death” on Earth, the force which animated each living thing will end up in the same “place” as all the others – or, perhaps, nowhere at all. But I strongly doubt we are destined for nothingness, since forces and energies cannot be destroyed.
One resulting question is whether each life retains its identity after discarding its physical home, or joins a process of reuniting with the whole of the life force. When heavenly bodies vanish into gravity sumps called black holes, their individual matter and energy characteristics – even the blasts of light they once emitted – are rendered into an indefinitely smaller unified state. Being the force which established the rules, however, did life dictate for itself a different fate?
I hope so – I hope I keep my own identity long enough after “death” to learn the truth then, if so allowed, take a trip across time and view the galactic eye-blink which is our Earth’s past, and settle for myself some of history’s mysteries.
* * *
So what is the meaning of this life, and why are we here? We do not know – but I firmly believe the mission of life is to upgrade its existence. Life develops for its use certain tools, primarily the senses and, in higher forms, an ability to think. We sentient beings consciously value our own existence, and we endeavor to improve our environment and ourselves. Early humans lashed stones to sticks and tilled soil to grow food; later editions wielded lasers to repair brain tissue. Along the way, in a magnificent leap forward, we were the first species to actively contemplate how we should behave toward one another.
Evidence of this was codified in the Ten Commandments, a semi-prehistoric mixture of reason and religion. The secular components of our first written set of laws were, in philosophical consistency, founded upon a single rule: You shall not steal. Murdering someone is stealing his life, as coveting is the wish to steal another’s possessions – as adultery is the theft of vows you have given.
These tenets, which sprang not from a mountaintop but from intellectual awakening, originated about the same time as another sapient realization: Treat other people just as you would want to be treated. Just – as in the concept “justice.”
Accordingly, not truly knowing what occurs afterward, the life we have here on Earth is all that can or should be relevant to us. It is incumbent upon us who wield the the life force to pursue progress, to ameliorate our conditions, to strive for justice, productivity and happiness while we are here. We owe that to the splinter of God imbedded within us each.
Chapter 13 of John Steinbeck’s novel East of Eden opens with praise for the act of personal creativity, properly noting that the individual mind and spirit constitute our planet’s sole creative instrument – and the “free, exploring mind of the individual human being is the most valuable thing in the world.”
Indeed that is so. A splinter of God.

ally77 said on September 17, 2005 22:13:

Your right about life Santi!

Santi said on September 18, 2005 02:33:

The difference between me and you is that for me life has not a preconceived meaning, set by some superpower. Don’t mix up things.

My life is not worthless, but it’s as worth as I want to make it. I do what I want to do.

I don’t have to care for what other being set for me and expects of me. I’m free, guess you cannot say the same. Everybody knows that freedom is the contrary to love, and you love god all the time :)

purplemedusa said on September 18, 2005 07:09:

I’m loving this discussion; both Santi & Oldag have very good points. Well I choose to be less cinical tho... I believe in Mystery, in Love (unconditional love) I believe in Yin and Yang and everything inbetween and around it! And I believe that my beliefs are in a supernatural force... ! Mystery guides us... Love gives meaning (unconditional love DOESN’T take freedom away)... and Yin&Yang binds everything that IS together. Furthermore i believe that the statement “I AM” is the most powerfull declaration... that simply being and embracing yourself is the key to enlightenment - it is Mystery & Love’s wish for us.

I don’t support any religion; i feel many ’crimes’ have been commited in the name of rightousness - who are we to decide what is right or wrong? I believe to our souls are fragments of the supernatural... beauty in it’s most purest form. Following our soul’s desires WILL lead to love for other souls... who needs those set of rights & wrongs then?

Pain & suffering is very often the leading reason why people stop believing in the supernatural that claims to BE Love... and in all honesty this is a difficult concept for me too! But like i said above I believe our souls are fragments of the Great Divine - so what harm can come to it?

I’m a huge fan of Oriah Mountian Dreamer; she wrote the following poem at the end of her book, The Call. I find these words expressing it so beautifully!

THE CONCLUSION by Oriah Mountian Dreamer

There’s nowhere to rest your eye
that does not behold the face of the Beloved.
There is nothing here but you and God,
and no real harm can ever be done to either,
so what is there to forgive?
Ah, it’s so hard to keep this perspective,
to remember the truth when things get crazy
and we fear the worst.
All I can do is go back to my breath
and remember that the Holy Spirit
is what fills me with every inhale.
How could it be otherwise?
When we get it, all this anguish seems so unneccesary.
When we lose it, suffering seems to be the only option.
All things have their roots planted in the same sacred soil.
Nothing is excluded from the sacred ground of being.
What would happen if we could remember this?
What place would be unsuitable for a shrine?
Brothel or barn, crack house or cathedral: ’all sacred.
What person would not be another yourself,
a shining and holy face of the Sacred Mystery?
Remember this when you look at those you call your enemies.
Even your darkest secrets,
the things about your self that make you cringe-
do you think the sacred presence is not large enough to include these?
How small out notion of God is?
How our ideas fall to even guess at the depth of the passion
the Beloved feels for us.

Open your eyes.
See, there is nothing here but you and the Beloved,
and no real separation between even these two.

Now that ought to make you smile.
-Oriah Mountian Dreamer-

Majdy said on September 20, 2005 09:34:

@ kathrin : member of two church? thats new to me. but I think I can understand that. I mean, now I am very interested in Catholic, but I also like to watch the program called Full Turn thats has pastor Alan Mushegan, and its not catholic I guess. so, I havent decide yet where to follow, both seemed great to me.