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National Service
45 replies
steven said on March 9, 2005 08:44:
Is it true that in some of the smaller European countries young men are required by law to serve several months national service in their country’s armed forces?
If you were forced to do so, how did this make you feel?
Kazza said on March 9, 2005 09:46:
I reckon it would be good for some of the idiots these days to get a bit of good old fashioned discipline!
Oldag75 said on March 9, 2005 13:12:
Yes, it’s extremely unfair that women aren’t also drafted into national service (except, probably, in some countries). While it’s proper for a woman to demand equal pay for equal work, it’s also honorable for a woman to insist she be given the same nature and degree of work (such as compulsory military service). How come the women in these countries aren’t screaming their heads off, demanding that girls too be drafted ?
rox-kuryliw said on March 9, 2005 14:10:
I agree women should have to do it aswell, equal standards. i would of helped old people no problem, infact after collage i went to help downsyndom people, which i really enjoyed. But i wouldnt go in the army ,id shot myself in the foot to do so.
on_a_mission said on March 9, 2005 14:10:
hmmm, maybe its because being drafted would suck.....? You have to understand, we like equal rights so long as they suit us, ;-)
oam.
Marc said on March 9, 2005 14:19:
Here in Croatia we can choose a military service which takes 6 months and civil service which is 8 months.
They invited me two weeks ago to start a civil service. The problem is that I’m going to study in foreign country and I wouldn’t be able to do the service this year. So I put my complaint and I’m expecting the results tomorrow. I’m stressed today. I don’t want something like that destroys my plans for future.
rox-kuryliw said on March 9, 2005 16:25:
isnt it a breaking the law of human rights if they make you , id SUE !! lol
ncurran said on March 9, 2005 16:29:
Europeans still have it lightly compared to some countries. In South Korea it is 2 years (just reduced from 26 months) and in North Korea it is something ridiculous like 10 or 12 years, i cant remember exactly
rox-kuryliw said on March 9, 2005 17:34:
Well thats South Korea / North Korea’s problems They dont have the best record of human rights do they , infact dont they have one of the worse next to china?
Jud (moderator) said on March 9, 2005 17:49:
it was also compulsory in Spain, I think first it was over a year, then it changed to 9 months, then they added this social service (red cross works, home for old people etc). Now I think it’s not compulsory anymore, and the army became 100% professional (before we had this military service + professional army - of course) open to both women and men. They had a lot of recruitment ads a while ago, not sure if they still run them, don’t watch spanish tv ;)
Austria.. I think it’s still compulsory.
Regarding women: I think men should NOT be pushed to go to the army for a couple of years/months, it should be an option everywhere if one wants to fight for his country or not, so it would be stupid for me to ask that this law should apply to women too, or? ;)
Now in Spain it’s equal, both men and women have the same chances ;)
If men are pushed to the army in some countries and women not..well that’s a result of the machos making the laws (long time ago), women were always called to “easy” works (nursery) in wars, men to fight, that just was kept like that, aren’t men stronger anyway? ;)
ally77 said on March 9, 2005 18:38:
I think it is sometthing that should be done in the UK... it might cut unemployment among other things.............. why anyone would want to come and live in the UK is beyond me, or is it because of the word “FREE RIDE” as they walk in!
rox-kuryliw said on March 9, 2005 23:14:
ok ally that goes for women in UK aswell as men. I hope people dont get bullied in these places if they did happen in UK ie for being gay / black asian ect , as i have a gay friend who is in the army and he would not dare say to anyone that he was gay. I think that helping old people/disabled people and stuff like that is a good idea though. Not the army id kill myself, well im on sick so im safe anyhow.
tcooh said on March 9, 2005 23:36:
In Norway all men can be called for a total of 15 months of military service. And they can be recalled for service from the age of 18 untill we turn 44. I’ve had mine obligatory 12 first months. When I was in about 50 % where picked for and found fit for service, nowadays it’s going towards less than 10 % of the men has to do national service. The law doesn’t differ between men and women, so woman can be called to. Some are, but for more civilian services like patient care, accident handling, and other kinds of emergencies.
I liked it, you learn a lot about your own boundaries, pushing yourself to achive more and better each time. And you get the best friends. Some say its’ the biggest kindergarden in the world, and at times it can be. But you get pushed through some tough phycologically tests that can change you, and some psyical tests that can break you. Week of hell; no sleep, a slice of bread, 1/3 liter of milk and 200 grams of fat/meat is all you get to eat from night to monday untall friday evening. Water you could get all you wanted. You push limits then.
First you can apply to be excused for national military service to civillian serivice instead based on grounds of being a passifist. But once your drafted, and don’t show up, the police will come and get you. But we can only be order to taska within our nations borders, we cannot be sent abroad. Technically we should apply to the military services before we can go abroad to work, study or on longer holidays, but these rules are not that stright followed up.
ncurran said on March 9, 2005 23:56:
rox-kuryliw, theres a big difference between North and South Korea. I would say the south has a better human rights record than the US actually.
And those arguing in favout of military service are crazy in my opinion. Maybe it was necessary in the past, but to re-introduce it in countries where it has been discontinued would be a massive step backwards....just another way of government telling people what to do and interfering in peoples lives. Also we dont actually need that big an army. Countries like S. Korea need to keep the draft because of the threats from their crazy neighbour. Mind you if that idiot Blair keeps following the US foreign policy we might need a bigger army soon
Santi said on March 10, 2005 00:22:
Still in Israel is 3 years, so more than Korea. I do not know if it is compulsory for women but many women go, it seems.
I did 1,5 months of social service in Spain taking care of two elder people, one of them the most depressing person I have ever met in my life, made me go crying back home 50% of the days. My service was shortened because they were reducing the serving time from 12 to 9 months and they had too many people on the waiting list, so I got released.
Having passed thru this, I must say that is not a nice feeling, that the state can dispose of your time, such a long time, for doing absolutely useless stuff that you will probably never ever need. It is (was) just a way of making people afraid and to make them feel they are nothing but pawns for the state. Take into account that when you reach that age, the time they steal from you is 5% of your life, and that is too much.
If you refused to go you could claim moral, ethical or religious convictions against arms or warfare, and do a social service instead like I did. I claimed ethical reasons, which on the contrary of most of the people of my generation, is absolutely true. The point is that if you did not claim anything you were considered “unsubmissive”. The word says a lot of what this all was about already. So there were submissive people and “criminals”, and not for any damage you caused other people or other people’s goods, but for the sake of wasting 5% of your lifetime.
So all in all I just want to leave this thought, for people who find it convenient: “5% OF YOUR LIFETIME”...
(15% in the case of Israel).
Santi said on March 10, 2005 00:30:
“Week of hell; no sleep, a slice of bread, 1/3 liter of milk and 200 grams of fat/meat is all you get to eat from night to monday untall friday evening. Water you could get all you wanted. You push limits then.”
Wow, sounds like the final exam week of the university!!!
felicity-brown said on March 10, 2005 00:52:
My sister-in-law’s boy has just been selected to do 12 months service. He’s just turned 18 and lives in Tillberga (Västerås), Sweden and had planned to go to Uni, so... no idea what they’ll do now.
Edit: Oh, and I think they should bring it back here ...kick some arses back into shape grrr ...these young boys nowadays - get away with murder... ;)
rox-kuryliw said on March 10, 2005 01:33:
felicity-brown i hope you want girls to go back aswell. equal rights :-D. PLUS all those who missed it must then make there time up aswell , so fairs fair lol see you there ;-).
felicity-brown said on March 10, 2005 03:01:
Yup, everyone! ...and I agree with Ally77 ...I wonder how many people would hesitate before coming here hmmmn
rox-kuryliw said on March 10, 2005 09:27:
Thats becouse people want to come here to live they way theu are ment to , they may have certin rules in there country which wont alone them to be themselves. need to tackle the core problem.
ncurran said on March 10, 2005 10:10:
I dont think it would have any effect on people wanting to come here considering military service is normally carried out at 18 years old and most immigrants are older than that.
On the subject of immigration though...it is a disgrace that the Gurkas who have fought for our country have not automatically been offered citizenship.
I notice that its mostly girls that have spoken out in favour of he military service....funny how as it wouldnt have effected you. 12 months can be a long time. Looking back i think it would have been a nightmare for me to do that...take a year out of my life do to something i have no interest in doing. I dont think its fair, and its almost like a prison sentence when you have done nothing wrong.
Maybe thats how we should recruit for the army. Instead of sending young people to jail for minor crimes, maybe they should be sent for service in the army
ally77 said on March 10, 2005 11:06:
@ rox-kuryliw, oh yeah women as well.... of course I guess you cannot count the ones that get pregnant for the free house and free ride.... that really annoys me grrrrrrrrrrr
@ Fliss... at last someone agrees with me, it’s hell living around here with some of the teen knobs... I swear I never behaved like they do not!
rox-kuryliw said on March 10, 2005 11:46:
ally i do kind of agree aswell. im also sick of the teen yobs on streets drinking shouting abuse when you walk past. When i was a in my teens (about 2 years ago lol) i wasnt like that at all neither were my friends, so its not all teens ;-). I was on the bus yesterday and this girl about 14 was pregnant and her mate was giving her tips on how to get loads of free stuff , SHE WAS GETTING LOADS, and then she said ow the goverment needs to give her more, then lights a fag !!! i was foaming, had to stop listerning then. It paints a really bad picture of people who really do need help, i get £30 pound a week to live on cos my parenst earn to much as im off sick. I was talking to some others at hostpial who are in similar position. i could never get my own house or anything else id have to live on streets if i get kicked out ! Its not like i choose to be in my postion either. They should bring back National Service, with the option of not going into the army but to do something else for the comunity aswell if you know what i mean. Had my rant for today i feel better now lol
rox-kuryliw said on March 10, 2005 11:51:
ncurran - the idea of sending young criminals to army instead of prison, sounds a good idea to me.
I always think they should be made to do work tidy street up ect with chains to there feet if they get sent to prison for breaking the law, make a use of them instead of giving them a tv and a comfortable bed in there cell to just hang around all day !
tcooh said on March 10, 2005 13:24:
“sending young criminals to army instead of prison, sounds a good idea to me.”
That sounds like a really bad idea. Maybe to make them do civillian service is a good idea, but to put them in the military and give them traing how to use different kinds of weapons and attact tactings, doesn’t sound not too smart for criminals. We should not improve their attacting skills! We should teach them the consequences, like put them in civilian emergency care units, to respond to accidents, and smiliar, and face the hard reality again and again.
Mitya said on March 10, 2005 14:16:
he wrote “for minor crimes “
really, ncurran, a good idea! you should go to Parliament/
felicity-brown said on March 10, 2005 15:35:
I just meant in general ...if healthy and unemployed for so long ...army! mwuahaha ;)
Jud (moderator) said on March 10, 2005 16:35:
I remember in Spain you could postpone the “mili” (military service) if you claimed you wanted to study or something, if you were at the Uni and took ages to finish.. it could be that they asked you to go there when you were 25, or let you go... and could also be punished if you didn’t go at all, called you “desertor” or “traitor” and could go to prison.. I doubt in the latest years the mili was still a must they punished many men though..
I am for a professional army, only if the person (man/woman) DECIDES for that job. A friend of mine wanted to go to the marines, but she wasn’t accepted, not sure if she was too short or .. whatever, but it was funny that by that time the state complained about the lack of applications.. uh.. ok.
purplemedusa said on March 10, 2005 16:58:
Personally I think it’s sick of governments to force people to do military service!! Thank God South Africa dropped that in 1994!!
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ally77 said on March 10, 2005 19:51:
I doubt PM you’ say that if you live over here and witnessed some of the crap that happens....
ally77 said on March 11, 2005 10:20:
No just stupid kids who have no respect for anyone and there parents are just brainless idiots...
Mari said on March 11, 2005 10:49:
purplemedusa, you wouldn’t say it’s sic, if you live here in Finland. Here is only five million people and our neighbor country is Russia...And hey, there’s always civilial service.
Santi said on March 11, 2005 11:52:
I do not think that to solve that the military service would really serve. That is a matter of education, of school and parents, not of the army.
Notmally those people are the ones that have more fun on the military service degrading more naive guys that are forced as well to go there.
So I think you are very wrong Ally. It is funny how people that would not have to go anyway seems to defend it, you have no clue what a hell it is or it was for many people for this stuff and obviously you would not feel threaten by having to go.
Mitya said on March 11, 2005 14:27:
@Mari: are you afraid Russia would attack Finland? We are not in the 18th century/
purplemedusa said on March 11, 2005 14:51:
Fear, fear, fear... the evil of our age!!! Forcing people to do military service IS a human rights violation... i will not suport it!!
Jud (moderator) said on March 11, 2005 15:59:
I think Russian have enough problems themselves to mind invading Finland.. besides the big brothers (EU + US) are watching and Russia will behave ;)
ally77 said on March 11, 2005 19:28:
@ Santi
>
I said I was all for it..... and if this had been in force when I left school I would have jumped at the chance.... In fact joining the Army was in fact something I wanted to do when I left school, but unfortunately it was not an option for me so I had to do something else. I was hoping to follow in my Father’s footsteps who served in the Army for over 10 years! You have to be living here in the UK to just see how some young people are turning out now to understand where we are coming from... Not everyone is of course like this but the UK has gone very down hill over the past 15 years or so.
Only the other day there was an article in the British papers about an 80 year old war pension who committed suicide because in his own words “Could not stand to live in crime riddled Britain”
StillFar said on March 11, 2005 19:54:
since when is the army turning people into decent human beings?
harriej said on March 11, 2005 20:02:
My service was postponed because I was studying at that time.
When I was finished with the study it was abolished.
Stormkeeper said on March 11, 2005 20:35:
I had to spend 8 months in the Army and hated each day like no other :(
glad it´s over and history.
Jud (moderator) said on March 11, 2005 20:43:
my dad had it nice, since he was one of the few that could type and knew a bit about accounting.. so after the first training months the capitain got him for his office, as his assistant, he spent about a year in an office, sorting the mail, preparing stuff to sign, .. and eating nice because he was allowed to take the food from home - the capitain liked that because that way my dad stayed in the office during lunch break and took care of all meanwhile the boss was having some “free hour” ;)
I always have to laugh when my dad explains stories about that time, how they pretended the boss was treating him like a soldier (the typical yes sir etc) when others were in front, but when they were alone they called eachother by the name ;)
ncurran said on March 9, 2005 09:02:
not just smaller countries. Men in German have to do 12 months military service, but they can opt out and choose to do 15 months civil service like working in an old peoples home or something. At least thats how it used to be, not sure if its changed.
Switzerland also has compulsory military service, except the men serve their time for shorter periods of time throughout their working lives...i’m not sure exactly how often, but lets say for example they could do it for a month every 5 years or something.