powerpoplarry said on June 23, 2003 17:30:

Aaso, first of all, the answer is NO, it’s purely theoretical, no proof whatsoever. Mythical, not historical. HOWEVER, I am openminded enough to think there COULD be a God, I just need proof, that’s all. I don’t just blindly follow. And, I honestly believe that the differing of views are the root problem on why there are so many wars, there’s no proof, only opinion!!

As I don’t believe, a so-called God has no importance in my life, but I am game for discovery though. It could affect my personal life, espesh if a soulmate has differing views. GF?? What GF?? The whole Ally 180 thing was a disaster!!! :-(((((

Yeah, that whole thing in your country REALLY suxxx!! You should be free to marry whomever you damn well please, REGARDLESS of religion!! It shouldn’t be against the law if your soulmate happens to be a Christian!! Compatibility is most important, NOT religious upbringing, what if you’re not a religious Islamic follower?? Doesn’t matter, eh?? That law MUST be changed!! There was a book written by a Jordanian woman on HONOUR KILLINGS and how wrong they are, basically murder!! It’s about her best friend, a Muslim woman, who was murdered by her dad because she was secretly seeing a Christian man, and it was justified by law there. The woman, a Christian, left the country to Australia, and received death threats after it was published.

Sooo basically, it is NOT right, that law, Aaso, and you should not be subject to it. If things work out with Carlos, you should be able to marry him without worrying if a law is being broken. I’m Jewish, and here in the US, it’s NOT against the law if you marry someone outside the faith. My sister married a Catholic guy, they have a son, and are very happy.

As for a Christian who opts to marry an athiest, it shouldn’t be a problem, just keep their differing beliefs to themselves, not let it get in the way of their love.

Email me...

kachina008 said on June 23, 2003 17:37:

Powerpoplarry, um, what happened??

as for God, I do believe in a higher power...and I do believe that everything happens for a reason. It’s happened many times that things have happened to me that I couldn’t accept, then something better came out of it. so it’s nice to believe that someone is looking out for me.

It is difficult for ppl of different religions, esply, (Sorry about this) “intolerant” religions. I know this, coz a Christian friend of mine tried to make it work with a muslim guy, but she realized that she couldn’t raise a family with (what she thought was best) Christian values with his Muslim family in the picture. The ideas are just so different, that it is bound to create problems. in a multi-religiuos relationship, tolerance is key. but if each of you believe in something so strongly that is so different from each other, its gonna be hard.

kachina008 said on June 23, 2003 17:50:

Yikes, larry.
I was shit scared too, when it happened to me and bf, so that might be it. doesn’t mean she doesn’t feel for you, but things might be going too fast. believe me, its scary when you think you aren’t ready for something so damn seriuos.

I’m sorry about your situation :( I’m sure things will turn out in the end...everyting happens for a reason remember! so smile, tomorrow is a new day.

derek said on June 23, 2003 18:04:

@Aaso no i do not believe in god but i believe in something i have no problems with what people want to believe in its there choice (sometimes )as long as they dont bend my ear about it.its a very delicate situation and as for a christian marrying a moslem thats tough because one is more stricter than the other and then you have the family on your back. it is a shame that people let religion get in the way of love and a relationship. toleranca and acceptance of each others belief is the key word.

powerpoplarry said on June 23, 2003 18:13:

Um, I don’t think Ally will be back so soon, as she has lots of problems, not me, that she needs to sort out first. She could be gone a long time, and I now feel like I got involved with her at the worst possible time for her.

I am very sad, yes, but honestly, I don’t think I should wait and put my life on hold...will I ever find true mutual love again, I really don’t know...damn I feel so used... :-(((((((

zeeshan said on June 23, 2003 18:47:

Aaso: I don’t know if you have read Islam or not (like me) but YES, I think I know a little better about christianity and islam.

Islam gives muslims freedome to marry anyone who belongs to a religion which were gifted holy books. Christians are one of them. They have bible (which is not holy anymore because it was editted by man) but still... a muslim CAN marry a christian. First get the facts straight.

I believe on God. I think that it is impossible to prove that there is a god and on the other hand it is also impossible to prove that there is no god. I want to be “SAFE”. You can’t find if there is a god or not until you die. Every religion tells you that there IS a God and you must believe on him. I believe in God, if I die and then I find that there is no God then I AM SAFE!!! and if I die and find oh wai.. THERE IS A GOD!!! I am still safe. In either way I AM SAFE. I don’t wana become a hero and challenge God. I just wana stay “SAFE”. So all you who do not believe on God, think again. What if there is a god!? That is gona become a BIG BIG BIG PROBLEM when ya die ;=)

I just don’t understand HOW THE HELL CAN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE BE IN A BALANCE!? There has to be a power controlling it. Where did the FIRST CELL for ANY THING appeared!? the BIG BANG!? How the hell did it happen?

To every action there is a reaction so what was the action which made the BIG BANG? It all just can’t start all by itself. There must be a creator. There has to be.

Z

wendy said on June 23, 2003 20:16:

I believe in God,yes,and,i do think that there’s just one God,the God that Muslims,Christians,ect. is all the same God
I believe very much in the power of Nature.....

Aschrum said on June 23, 2003 20:25:

i believe in reality (and in love)

marriage:
i think thats VERY stupid as some persons ahead already wrote.
religionstuff shudnt be a problem for LOVE!

zee:
y cant you just except that it was like it was?
human brains arent intelligent enuff to “understand” the big bang.
so beliefe/except it as u except your god!

Shane said on June 23, 2003 21:07:

I believe in God - especially when I am surrounded by nature - I know about the Big Bang theory, etc., but the beauty and tranquility of nature makes me think a higher power is responsible for our world.

I also know people believe in the theory of evolution, but given people’s ability to feel emotions, especially love, and the vast differences in talents (if we evolved - wouldn’t we all have evolved in the same way?), I feel that some higher “being” created us to be special.

I do not know - maybe I am oversimplifying everything, but if there is no God - what are we doing here?

LittleSpooky said on June 24, 2003 05:01:

Interesting question. Personally, I’m going through such a “spiritual crisis”, that I’m not sure what to believe anymore. For example, how can a “loving God” let something like 9-11 happen? How can a benevolant God let something like war happen? That’s something that most chalk up to “Free Will”. But what is that? Is it something that is real, or is it pre-determined?

I mean, let’s stop and think for a moment. In the midst of senseless horrors and actions, it happens for a reason, right? How would the world be today if those 6 million + Jews were still alive? Would one of them have become the next mass murderer? Who knows. If someone that had perished in the Towers attacks had survived to cripple the world economy... then what? There are too many suppositions and “what ifs” to face if you think that way.

Now let’s turn around and look at something else: North Hollywood, California.
Date: February 28th, 1997
Scenario: Two men, armed with AK-47s, Tommy Guns, armor piercing bullets, and more ammunition than I have body parts commited a string of robberies leading up to the attempted robbery of the Bank of America on Laurel Canyon Blvd. in North Hollywood. Attempted because neither men got away, and the money had been contaminated with an exploding dye pack.
Estimated bullet-fire count: Well over 1,100 rounds from the robbers and police, with an additional 2,000 rounds discovered in the drums made for the Tommy Guns. They were ready to be switched for the empty drums and used. One suspect committed suicide (with the assistance of a head shot from an officer) and the other was taken out by S.W.A.T. More drums were found on the bodies, so the estimated count of UNUSED live ammunition goes well above 2,000.

End result: 2 dead (the robbers) and 17 wounded. 11 officers, 5 civilians, and 1 D.O.G. (for which I am still trying to find out what the acronym stands for). Now you have to stop and think: 1,100 + rounds fired, any the only casualties were the guys wearing the body armor (which LAPD’s 9mm hand guns WERE NOT GOING THROUGH). You look at that and wonder: Is there a God? And if so, He must have been looking out for all of those people (350+ officers of the LAPD, and countless civilians), for there to be only 17 wounded.

By the way, if anyone is interested, FX has done a special on it: “44 Minutes: The North Hollywood Shootout”. You can look it up in Yahoo! or Google, or Lycos. Type in “North Hollywood Shootout” and it will give you links.

powerpoplarry said on June 24, 2003 05:27:

I agree with TinyBubbles and Ferdan...at least I am strong enough to admit I need proof to believe in a so-called GOD; I don’t blindly follow cuz most everyone else believes with no reason behind it.

I also agree that a so-called GOD did not create man, man created this concept cuz he felt a need to hold on to a so-called centering force. People write books all the time, out of sheer creativity, and cuz it has to come out, like songs and poetry. The Bible is no different, a mythological story full of metaphors, that’s all it is, NOT a history book with tangible facts. Fiction not fact, and if a so-called GOD created the universe and stuff that long ago, why isn’t it dead??????? Nobody or no creature ever lives to infinity, whether it’s human or animal or a creature of any kind. Trees die after a thousand years or so. A so-called GOD, if it is a creature, shoulda been long gone dead!! That’s another reason why I don’t believe in it’s existance, there is no proof...

Santi said on June 24, 2003 08:00:

I don’t believe in God either.

But I think the cause of creating god is not that societies are not perfect, it’s because humans do not have all the information about what surrounds them, and the lack of understanding gives credit to God.

I don’t have any problem in believing that there are some rules in this universe and matter & energy “behave” according to them.

I just believe in Nature, that is the example of how a balance works, it’s a dynamic equilibrium, it’s a stage of evolution, it’s beauty!

(My opinion)

PS: By the way, it’s incredible to see how people misunderstand such a simple concept as Evolution is. May I explain it?
It can be explained in 3 paragraphs at much...

I can explain about the theories in the origin of life and Big Bang as well, if someone want to read them. (What makes you think big bang is not a reaction? Be open-minded... hasn’t anybody heard about anti-matter? :|)

Aschrum said on June 24, 2003 09:22:

shane
evolution is no theory

neither is the big bang a theory

Lennon said on June 24, 2003 09:47:

Is it possible to prove the existence of god? I think it’s not (at least, if god exists, he or she (???) hides very well).
But to prove the opposite is imossible as well.
We can try to reconstruct the history of the universe, but we cannot answer who or what createt the very first cause. Or if it makes sense to ask this questions (because “cause” is a word which makes sense only in a room-time-continium, and this was very very different in the beginning).

But people don’t really want to know if there is a god or not. They only want to know if they will survive forever or if their time is limited.
If there is a god and we never would get to know about him, because we only live as long as our brian is streamed with blood, noone of us would care about him.
Imagine that he is a kind of “programmer”, who wrote this grandious simulation called “universe” with all aspects of room, time and energy just to watch what happens. No immortal souls. We would not care.
On the other hand, if we new that live would go on after dead and everything will be fine, we also would not care.

But IF THERE IS A GOD who will REVARD us after dead if we believe or PUNISH us if not, we suddenly do care.

As a biology-student I believe in evolution and I believe that moral was an advantage of selection during the developement of mankind. So “populations” believing in god supported each other more to collect points for the “next level”.

But I can tell you about the “Immortal Soul” that this is, as far as neurobiology knows today, a network of neurons. There are cases where calm, reasonable and nice people became unfriendly, violent, ruthless and imulsive just because there prefrontal Cortex became injured mechanicly or by a tumor.
And agressive or anxious people do not fear anything anymore and are calm and peaceful in any situation when the amygdala doesn’t work anymore because of a tumor for example.
How can an immortal soul which is independed from our body be influenced in such radical ways as I mentioned?

Interesting is that there are so many people in our society being shizophren (about 1 %). Most likely this is caused by a dissregulation of dopamin in most cases, often iniciated by drug-consumation. This means that it has a genetical cause and that there might be more people with the assessment for shizophrenia. The allels for this illness must be spread in large numbers through our society.

Why? Shizophrania is a serious illness which should be a dissadvantage in evolution.
But those people often talk about “visions”, hear “voices” and “orders from god and aliens”.
Maybe our society took advantage of shizophrenia.

If this is true than the BELIEVE in god is good for our evolution and makes sense in a way.
But this DOES NOT mean that there REALLY IS a god.
And this DOES NOT mean that we are immortal.

Of course I wish there is “a higher sense” in live and someone who will turn everything good again in the end.
I don’t want my world just to be a simulation created by my brian, only made by neorons fireing in a certain frequency.
But where is the soul, when it is so vulnerable?
Even those “out of body”-experiences are, as far as I know, solved by neurobiology. There are even computersimulations which discribe how the effect of the “tunnel” arises in our brian-areas that process our visual input.

I belived in good when I was younger and I always wanted to believe. But I lost it more and more. Sometimes I wished I would never new the things I know now about our “soul”.

On the other hand with this knowledge we can maybe try to become aware that THIS HERE is the world and that it’s not worth dieing or killing because of religion.
And nevertheless: in the end nothing is proved.

sparroweye said on June 24, 2003 09:56:

seriously aschrum?!
ever heard about the World Trade Center??

Santi said on June 24, 2003 10:16:

Lennon said: “As a biology-student I believe in evolution and I believe that moral was an advantage of selection during the developement of mankind. So “populations” believing in god supported each other more to collect points for the “next level”.”

As a geographer very interested in biology I doubt a lot there’s a gene, a set of genes or any other DNA based gadget that favours “believing in god” :O I doubt a lot predisposition for being religious has a biological basis.
I don’t like either that you mix moral with religion. I can make a difference between good and evil without the need of any god.

The populations that support(ed) each other are the ones that believe “the same way in the same god”, not even just in the same god. The best example is Northern Ireland or Ex-Yugoslavia, where people believing in the very same god but different way were killing each other for that. The moral you said, just works inside the community with a certain rite, because “all the rest are the evil and deserve death and the hell that our god is gonna give them when we’ve killed them”.

Aschrum said on June 24, 2003 11:19:

about the wtc nyc? or abt which wtc?

Lennon said on June 24, 2003 11:26:

@Santi:

You are right that people seem to fight each other because of religion. But within one “population” the support between the members is very tight when they believe in something. I do not think there are genes that determine us to believe in a certain kind of religion or to chose “the right way”.
But I am sure that there is a tendency to believe in religious-like things (look at the UFO-and esoteric-hystery), which is genetically determined. Even if there is a conflict between two “populations” because of different religions, it is no disadvantage within the SINGLE population. Of course there is an “intraspecific competition”, so one “population” might become dominant over the other one in a certain area. But I don’t think that religion is the proper reason for those violence. It’s more about social imbalances that make people kill each other in modern times. The fanatism is obviously based on religion. But in mankind’s history this fanatism might has been helpful in surviving more often than it caused harm.
But 9-11 and wars are not just religious conflicts in my opinion. As long as there will be people in this world living in poorness while others have more than they need there will be hate and terrorism, no matter if there is religion or not. But our ability to fanatism of course enhances the dimensions of violence.

Ferdan said on June 24, 2003 11:54:

aschrum, what do you mean by “it is no theory”?

sparroweye said on June 24, 2003 12:29:

ich habe es nicht böse gemeint.. weisst du schon, ja? :)
erst habe ich es auch ein bisschen komisch gefunden....

Aschrum said on June 24, 2003 14:49:

thanks santi :-X
lolz

wendy said on June 24, 2003 20:59:

Gotta say that i beginning to have strong doubts about “God”..........

Wasn’t he the One who wants people to love eachother?? But,why,if some people truly love eachother,why want others to stop them??? (Romeo & Juliet for example)

Wasn’t he the One who said that there’s no difference between people?? But,why are there poor and rich people???

Wasn’t he the One who doesn’t mind if we all have a different religion,different opinion??? But,why does he lets us make war??

There are so many questions that can’t be solved,but,if God really wanted to create a world like this,then not this world,but God is a mistake...........

Aschrum said on June 25, 2003 06:56:

cuz we know it is still growing.
so anytime it had to be “born”
and we have some “spoors” of it.
when u put on the tv and there comes the “snow”.
its anything left by the big bang.

Aschrum said on June 25, 2003 13:47:

what is “the big crunch”? (auf deutsch bitte)

your question:
because ppl didnt understood it and another good side for the majors was that ppl stood “stupid”

and for example in europe very much persons were ought to “believe” in such a thing or were ought to join those clubs.
otherwise they wuld have been banned outa that sociaty and maybe juged by the religion.

maybe there also is a certain kinda activity when i think abt a special girl ;)

xuxa said on June 26, 2003 12:54:

mmmm Aaso, why don’t you take a look at Aschrum’s profile, eh??? :DD

Aschrum said on June 26, 2003 15:44:

wow... 401 applies :D amazing :D

Aschrum said on June 26, 2003 20:12:

but i guess u registered much longer ago that me did ;P

Aschrum said on June 26, 2003 20:43:

you?

Aaso said on June 27, 2003 09:32:

27-1-2003

Aschrum said on June 27, 2003 12:09:

y zee?

dont have the mail anymore so cant look it up :(

Aaso said on June 28, 2003 04:22:

Zee also has 110 comments. Thats a real time taking post isnt it? ;D

pearls_of_passion said on June 28, 2003 12:36:

I’m a Christian, too. I don’t believe in God. Why are some people so rich and other people die because they have nothing to eat? If there were a God, nobody would have to die because of fame. Well, that’s my opinion....By the way (as Larry said) there’s no proof.

TinyBubbles said on June 28, 2003 16:37:

Yeah, i don’t get that either André, but maybe he/she meant that he/she was raised in that culture, and has that background. Yes!! That means i’m christian too, and i can marry someone dear...ah, bad joke. I’m tired. Nevermind..

Nina4u said on June 29, 2003 10:00:

Do you believe in a god that satisfies,
do you believe in a god that opens eyes,
do you believe in a god that tells you lies,
or do u believe in ME?

Do you believe in a god that brings you down,
do u believe in a god that wears a crown,
do u believe in a god that makes u bow,
or do u believe in ME?

Marco V ;-)

Nina4u said on June 29, 2003 18:29:

Aschrum .... thats a song with Marco V ;-)

However ... I do belive in the bible.... and God .
I belive all religion is false ...they don’t follow the bible ... and I belive we dont have to belong to a religion to be accepted by god.

pearls_of_passion said on July 2, 2003 18:17:

@Aschrum and TinyBubbles

Yeah, TinyBubbles, I meant it that way round (that I was raised in that culture and have that background). Sorry for the confusion!

Aschrum said on July 3, 2003 11:31:

carbonboy
as u already said. (“religion as an excuse for war”)
maybe w/o religions wuld men still be starting wars, but
maybe even some fewer?!

“I just believe in me
Edward and me”

the aprilia driver? :D

Aschrum said on July 3, 2003 17:53:

the aprilia motogp driver? :)

carbon_boy said on July 21, 2003 13:47:

LOL! No no, Edward is not who you think it is... LOL! You ppl are so funny sometimes....hehehe... ;o)

Later

Aaso said on July 24, 2003 04:57:

You believe in yourself Derek?ok everybody believes in himself.
I’m not a very hard person about religion. BUt I think we believe in GOD because we need something to believe. We need someone to refer to. It can’t be a person like me. Cuz a person like me needs someone to refer to too.

Ya know what I believe in GOD, I believe in “me”. And I am sure I’m the GOD. My GOD lives inside me. Right in my heart. When I said “he talked with me last night” , actualy I’m talking about the guy who is in my heart. And I do believe in my heart!

havoncruise said on August 16, 2003 07:29:

yes, i believe in God. God is perfect. i also believe in the bible.

coyboyusa said on August 16, 2003 15:58:

dont believe in hitler...dont u mean naziism?

Santi said on August 16, 2003 21:39:

Coyboy: That’s what John Lennon sang in his song “God”. Just that.

LittleSpooky said on June 4, 2004 05:14:

Since my last posting in this, things in my life have changed.

I am no longer a Christian. I have turned to a different religon and have finally found peace with myself. And I made this decision based on things I said in a previous post.

Primarily: The bloodiest, meanest, harshest, highest mortality rated wars were fought over what? GOD. George Carlin has it right: “The more devout you are, the more you’re apt to throw away that 5th Commandment: Thou shalt not commit murder. All you have to do is take a look at Kashmir (spelling), the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, World Trade Centre and see this.”

I could no longer live my life with those beliefs, so, after some serious thoughts and questions, I renounced Christianity and have began this new path with some difficulty, but for once, I feel that this is the right thing for me to do.

(If anyone’s curious as to what it is I’m rambling about, e-mail me and I’ll tell you).

carbon_boy said on June 4, 2004 06:58:

The death of one is a tragedy
But the death of millions is just a statistic

Some children died the other day
we fed machines and then we prayed
puked up and down in morbid faith
you should have seen the ratings that day

I never really hated a one true god
but the god of the people I hated

But I’m not a slave to a god
That doesn’t exist
But I’m not a slave to a world
That doesn’t give a shit

TinyBubbles said on June 4, 2004 13:00:

Anyone read any of ZECHARIA SITCHIN’S ”earth cronicle” books?? OMG. OMG. Dont know what else to say. OMG.
Most everyone of course thinks he is crazy and i find his works so hard to read but OMG. If you want a totally new outlook on things, eh excuse me.. , a totally different outlook on EVERYTHING you believed so far.. read his books! Chances are you’ll throw it away after the first few pages, but if you stick it out you might just see he’s onto something and he’s got facts no one can ignore.

Another book worth reading: The Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasons and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Christ
(Christopher Knight, Robert Lomas)

Little Spooky: What religion have you turned to?? (Ah i’m a lazy cow. Dont even email my own mother)

eyerun said on June 5, 2004 03:20:

ah man....i went back to the discussion page to check a question and I lost all my words:( MAybe it was suppose to happen, because as I was typing a response to Ferdan when my boyfriend called and we had a great convo about our future.

In a nut shell what I had typed, basically showed that I respect his views. I am just questioning him to see how far his knowledge goes on what he believes. You have to realize he is a man of arguements (not in your face screams, but debates, or discussions with intellectual backing..so he loves talking about religion) He believes in karma and the flow of energy(dowism). He also thinks that there is a supernatural power that is above humans, one that can sense more than three dimensions. I find his beilieves fascinating, but very confusing. He comes from a family that has Christians, Jews, Spiritual believers, Roman Catholics.....If I was raised like this I would be so lost.

This has just been on my mind the past month because my mom has really been disappointed that I would chose to date a nonchristian. But I love my mother I don’t want to disappoint her. She doesn’t feel that people with different religions can marry, let alone have a respectable realtionship.

However, I live in the modern world and think that different religions can marry. I don’t think it will be easy to raise kids, but when is it easy?

First of all your questions about seperationism etc... I think that every Christian has a slightly different believe. Our experiences have created what this image of a Christian holds. As for myself, I feel my Christianity is different than my parents in some ways. I realize this when talking with my mom because she doesn’t believe that i should go with a nonchristian. However, I think that as being a Christian I love everyone...no matter what religion.

I (personally...not speaking for my parents) have to go with separationism/sectarianism/division being a good thing for humanity. It is only these divisions by which we learn and love. If everyone was the “perfect” christain how could one branch to new ideas and interests?

my e-mail is [email protected] for meiky(sorry if I spelt that wrong..i am just going from your file thing which i saw like an hour ago:)

Ferdan said on June 5, 2004 06:22:

wow, I’ve never taught people like your parents still existed.

I’m not used to it, I’ve never met people like that, so I feel a bit strange talking about it. Is that very common where you live?

Anyway, so you think separationism is good?

So would you agree that black people should have a different restroom than white people?
Because that’s more or less what religious separatism would profess, but instead of being based on race... it would be based on religion.
(it was a bit exagerated example, but compared to what happened through history(religious wars and death) is just fit)

And we know that the religion of a person doesn’t tell us what kind of person he/she is. Also goes according to the US Constitution.

I don’t want to sound insulting, but your parents need help, but sadly they might be too grown to change by now...
but you have time to not be like them.

Discrimination based on religion is BIGOTRY.
Religion, just like race, does not mark or tell the quality of a person, does not tell if that person is honest or a lier, neither if he’s lazy or hard working, neither if he’s moral or immoral, it hardly proves anything relevant about the person.
There are christian thieves, there are christian rapists, there are christian politics ;)
There are jew thieves, there are jew rapists, there are jew politics
there are muslim thieves, there are muslim rapists, there are muslim politics
etc. etc. etc.

The quality of a person is regarded first by his/her actions, and later by personal values (values wich religion does not necesarily tell about them, example there are christians pro abortion, there are atheists against abortion)

WE are in the 21’ Century, WE(as humankind members) are supposed to have learned the lessons from history, the last 2004 years of history specially. Those years of history teach that religious separationism, or any other irrational behaviour, brings conflict, brings struggle, brings pain, and in the long run it brings war and death, and I’m not exagerating here.... it’s all there in the history books.

Look at Israel/Palestine and tell me you think they’re having good times with separationism.
Tell me if Protestants and Catholics had a good time when they fought wars and killed each others for years for being unable to understand what means respecting the others’ beliefs or understanding the life in peace and human unity.

If a religion turns people appart, then what’s the use of it?

And on the religious side, look at how many christian branches there are... with so many things they don’t agree with each other...
that means YOU as a person, YOU as a spirit in your religion... are allowed to have your own interpretation of it, your parents interpretation isn’t the only and true interpretation... for example, your parents might be unchristian according to some christian branches.

So think about it, not even christians agree on everything... so you ARE allowed to have your own interpretation, you ARE allowed to have your own heart’s mandate.

They’re the ones in fault here, not you...
I bet you’ve been a nice daughter, that’s enough from your part, you shouldn’t feel that you owe them something like chosing your guy according to what they feel close to their own religious interpretation.
If he’s good person, they should accept him, period.

harriej said on June 5, 2004 14:44:

I have been raised as a christian, but sometimes I don’t know if I have to believe there is a God, if you see at all the wars and other bad things happening in this world.
If there is a ALMIGHTY God, he wouldn’t let this happen.
So there are a few possibilites:
1. There is not a God
2. There is a God, but he is not so almighty that he is can prevent us humans from doing bad things.
3. There is a God, who is almighty, but let’s us go our way, but will judge us on what we have done.

I don’t know anymore which it will be.
As a christian I guess it should be option 3, but I am sometimes really not sure and think more in the direction of option 1 or 2.

kachina008 said on June 5, 2004 17:15:

one more thing: don’t ever [EDIT] NOT!! [end edit] do something coz your parents don’t approve of it. believe me, you will hate yourself for giving up something you really believed in.

:D

eyerun said on June 6, 2004 00:46:

thanks for your responses:) Many of them made me think, which is good!

As I was reading today, I came across an interpretation of the bible by John Paul II. He stated that, “The Bible tells us where we are going, not where we came from.” I guess I have thoughts on this, but I was wondering what all you think about this interpretation?

kachina008 said on June 6, 2004 01:10:

sorry, might not have been clear.

I meant, think of what you are conflicted with, and make your decision on what is most important to you. just because your parents don’t like it, doesn’t mean it isn’t what is best for you. it’s eventaully about you, not them.

(it’s a hard lesson, one which I am yet to really learn)

Aaso said on June 18, 2004 13:05:

oh I am sorry for your baby.

I did not believe in GOD 2 years ago ... I still dunno how I got to reach this point but I can truely remmebr what made me belive. And now I am about to be a Christian!

Aaso said on June 18, 2004 15:00:

Could you please give the authors name also?

kachina008 said on June 18, 2004 20:32:

Aaso: why a christian?

RoxHard said on June 18, 2004 21:32:

If you’re an easily offended Christian, don’t read this:

I seriously believe that the human race would have been better off without religion. I don’t believe it’s given us order, I don’t believe that it has made us better people. I actually think it’s made us worse. How many wars and masacures have been started in “the name of God”? So many millions of people have been killed and persicuted simply on the basis of their beliefs. I mean, it’s not like we were all canabels or something before Jesus - we had order, we had civilisation. Didn’t Ancient Rome have a government? All I know is, is that devisions (like different religions) have caused many many conflicts (take Northern Ireland for example). That whole Northern Ireland thing is happening because the Protestants hate the Christians (and vice-versa). Nothing more, nothing less.

I seriously believe that religion has derived us of the Utopia that it set out to achieve.

And I just think there are too many loop holes in the Bible to take it seriously.

Take the story about Jesus turning a few fish and loafs of bread into enough “to feed a whole village”. There is no explanation as to how he did it. Was Jesus a scientist? Did he turn 1 or 2 fish into 1 or 2 hundred fish by the process of Mitosis (cell division)? Did the fish just start magically multiplying? Or did Jesus tell his band of thugs, oops, I meant Deciples, to go and raid a few local fish markets and steal as much fish as they could? Did they threaten to kill the fish merchant and his poor wife?

And why isn’t there a Jesus around now? What made God send Jesus to us 2000 years ago, but not now? What was so bad back then? Surely the ’Lord’ must know that we need a Jesus now! Where is he?

I believe there is SOMETHING SOMEWHERE. I don’t believe it’s a spirit, I don’t believe we’ll ever meet the thing.

You know, this world is pretty messed up right now. Maybe this thing made the earth just to create as much cruelty and hardship as possible. Ooh, maybe we’re that infamous HELL? Oh, I’m reeling with anticipation to find out what it was that made this thing send me to this beautiful hell!

RoxHard said on June 18, 2004 23:17:

I was using that whole scientific thing as an example. I was actually asking a question. How did he get all the fish?

per4me said on June 19, 2004 02:31:

aaso- thank you. i’m really happy that you are becoming a christian. it feels good to have something good to believe in.

there are things in the bible that aren’t understandable. jesus isn’t in body form now because he died on the cross. but do people really have to see something to believe in it?

Roxfever said on June 19, 2004 11:19:

“so you have to ’interperate’ a book that’s supposed to be the Christian ’salvation’” Of course you have to interpret it! But I’m not the first one to realize that :-) Everybody knows it. It’s the same with the Koran....Strictly speaking you have to interpret all kind of literature unless you are reading the tabloid, pulp novels or scientific texts.

RoxHard said on June 19, 2004 15:59:

Me: 6/18/2004 22:25
“I believe in the principles of decency. Just don’t kill anyone - and you’ll be fine. If you wanna be Christian or a Jew or Hindu or whatever - it’s fine. It doesn’t effect me. Just don’t try and ridicule me for not believing in what you believe in. I hate that! If you don’t believe in something, that doesn’t make you a better or worse person.”

and now...

Per4me: “aaso- thank you. i’m really happy that you are becoming a christian. it feels good to have something good to believe in.”

What was it I just said? I hate this... I hate it when Christians or Jews or Muslims seriously believe that they have the RIGHT religion. And if you don’t believe in religion, then you must be ’wayward’ or ’corrupted’. We’re not living in the 16th Century anymore people!!

”there are things in the bible that aren’t understandable. jesus isn’t in body form now because he died on the cross. but do people really have to see something to believe in it”.

“because he died on the cross”. Yeah... but there is NO TRUE EVIDENCE to support any theories that he actually even EXISTED in the first place!

“do people really have to see something to believe it”. Yes, they do. Especially when it’s something as serious as religion! Some of us can’t base our whole way of life on something that’s as unconsistant and speradic as religion.

kachina008 said on June 19, 2004 18:50:

Roxhard:

1) I am doing a PhD in molecular biology, so excuse me, i *do* know what I am talking about. Mitosis as you say IS cell division, but mitosis is not the process that takes place if you want to make more of a whole animal. if you want to make more fishies from one fishie, its either reproduction or cloning.

2) I AM NOT a christian. I am not religious. I am simply making a counter arguement for people to think about.

I am not againt religion. I am against what it does to ppl, and that is making them smallminded. unfortunately, there are small minded AND non religious ppl out there as well.

I am not saying that you are not thinking, Roxhard, I am just saying that there are a LOT more ppl out there who do not think like you. it was not meant as a personal attack, so you were wrong to judge me as quickly as you did.

sheesh.

harriej said on June 19, 2004 20:48:

If there is a god, he doesn’t like football.
Netherlands-Czech Republik 2-3

Roxfever said on June 19, 2004 21:58:

Yes, you are right harriej :-) Or maybe he was busy doing something else today;-) Although you and I support 2 different teams it neverthelass was a bad day for both us ;-)

@RoxHard, you don’t have to believe in anything, it’s your business what you believe in or what you don’t believe in but to me it seems like you even don’t know what you do not believe in. Arguments agains any believe are ok and a Christian or Muslim or Hindu or whatever has to accept them but the arguments should at least make sense.

Santi said on June 19, 2004 22:57:

“Arguments agains any believe are ok and a Christian or Muslim or Hindu or whatever has to accept them but the arguments should at least make sense.”

And non believers must accept any kind of argument that make no sense at all...

RoxHard said on June 20, 2004 17:12:

And I think you’re all taking this ’Utopia’ thing way out of context. I never said the world would be perfect without religion. I believe my exact words were: “I seriously believe that religion has deprived us of the Utopia that it set out to achieve”.

I never said the world would be perfect without religion, you’ve got that all wrong. I meant that religion has caused so many devisions in the world that it has made us worse off. If we were all the same religion - then yeah, we might have stood some chance. But 6 billion people who follow who-knows how many religions? It’s impossible to create that ’Utopia’ that Christianity talks about in things like The Commandments (“Thou Shall Not Kill” - but it’s mainly because of different religions that we ARE killing {my Northern Ireland example}, amoung other reasons).

And - at the moment (or maybe forever) - I do not follow any religions. As I said before I “follow the principles of decency”. You don’t have to be religious to understand that it’s wrong to cut short someone’s life by violent means. I used to be Christian, but a crappy life mixed with a ’sporadic’ and ’fundamentally flawed’ religion made it almost impossible to stay Christian. I was questioning ’God’ by the age of 8!

However, that does not mean that I am not entitled to talk about religion!

kachina008 said on June 20, 2004 20:53:

are you calling me a liar? I’m sorry, but can’t I work in a lab with a Japanese person?

amazing.

and since someone is talking about giving ME a biology lesson, here’s one for ya: mitosis is the process of CELLS giving rise to more CELLS, and not WHOLE animals giving rise to WHOLE animals.

And i didn’t make this the point of discussion, *you* did. I was just trying to correct you, and in a nice way I might add. Do you really get a kick out of insulting other ppl?

merrygoround said on June 20, 2004 21:09:

oh, i believe in God. he’s there alright. for me at least. i don’t see a need to talk about WHY i believe or what difference it makes. i’ve gone through 80% of the posts on this forum, and it seems most of that has been said. it’s the same words in different molds. however, i would like to add that it is about time the world developed tolerance for the different religions and cultures that exist - they are not about to disappear - so either we co-exist or co-annihilate.

RoxHard said on June 21, 2004 02:08:

Augh... Kachina... your arguments are getting more and more pathetic. “and since someone is talking about giving ME a biology lesson, here’s one for ya: mitosis is the process of CELLS giving rise to more CELLS, and not WHOLE animals giving rise to WHOLE animals”.
Now, come on, my dear... when have I ever said that?
Haven’t I always said “mitosis is the process of CELL devision”!!!

Is this where you got the whole ’animals deviding’ thing?

RoxHard: “But... ’Mitosis’ is the process of cell division. It is the creating of daughter cells from mother cells by active division. And I don’t think you got my point in the first place. The way the story tells us about how Jesus got the fish - you’d swear he was a magician! You’d swear the fish just started to divide automatically - so 1 fish would become 2, 2 fish would become 4, etc. Do you get what I mean now?”

You know, I should put the emphasised words in capital letters. I totally understand that mitosis is ’the process of cell devision’. But, there was a heavy emphasis on the word ’Magician’ here. ’the fish just started deviding automatically’ - as in, the way a magician just starts making this appear from nowhere.

My grammer and phrasing here was correct here.

RoxHard said on June 21, 2004 02:33:

I’m sorry about making so many posts in reply to littlespooky, but I can’t help it. I’m reading her topics - and I can’t help but reply. I seriously believe you’ve got me all wrong here.

1) Intolerant - yes, only of forced religion.

2) What the heck was that thing on the end about Jews? “Hitlers younger brother”??????? What??? Have I ever blamed all my problems on Jews? Have I ever started any masacres againts Jews? I DON’T THINK SO!

I seriously don’t like the way this discussion is turning.

If you don’t mind, I do not wish to participate in this discussion about my personal religious beliefs any more. Although, I cannot promise I mightn’t reply (sometimes it’s just oh too tempting).

And have none of you ever been to the ’TDR Discussion’ forum? Apparently, the Mod’s are coming down hard nowadays!

RoxHard said on June 21, 2004 03:12:

Mmm... You must be pleasant to be around.

’pissing match’ - sounds tasty!

per4me said on June 21, 2004 03:40:

i never said that imy religion is the right on or that anyone else had to believe in it, to each his own! i don’t judge anyone else at all! believeing is god is good for me but not for everyone. it helps me try to make sense of all the crap going on in the world. when i’m perfect then and only then can i judge or lable people, but i’m not so i can’t!

RoxHard said on June 21, 2004 16:33:

I don’t like the way you’re all trying to distort everything to make it seem like I’m... I don’t even know what. All I can say is that...

I am not ’Bigoted’
I am not ’Racist’
I am not ’Sexist’
I am not a ’Homophobe’

I am none of these things!

Roxfever said on June 21, 2004 18:28:

That I’m David Copperfield’s sister ;-)

LittleSpooky said on June 22, 2004 02:49:

Harriej: Exactly.

eyerun said on June 22, 2004 08:14:

I would just like to share with you all an experience I had at work the other day:) A man that I work with who is about 30 years old was talking to me and about his religion. He recently got baptized and attends a Pentacostal church. It was really cool when he was telling me this story, because you could tell he was really excited. Anyway, he mentioned that one of his friends that goes to his church was at a prayer service one day, and while praying, the person next to him started praying in French. Now the guy that I work with, his friend that was standing next to this guy had many years of French and could recognize some of the words in his guys prayer. After the prayer he asked the guy if he knew French, and the guy said he never spoke it, or learned French. Then he told him that he was speaking in tongues, and that there were many people that did it in the church.

I was floored by this story, and kinda scared. That same night I was talking to my sister about tongues, and she said that her roomate in college could talk in tongues. She said that it only happens when your in really deep thought, and it is a gift that you recieve when someone prays upon you.

Wow, isn’t this powerful. Scary what are minds are capable of. The Bible mentions tongues in 35 different places! There’s a more general name for it...Gallicalia...or something like that.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

as for the rest of the discussions...man alive...I sense a little hostility.

Roxhard you mentioned earlier that you lived by decency.
What exactly do you mean by “decency?” I’ll just leave it as that, because I don’t know what’s decent about posts you’ve been making.

RoxHard said on June 22, 2004 23:11:

Eyerun: that story you posted made no sense, so what about tongues? When in deep prayer, you may get lost in your own thoughts and you may mumble. Was he mumbeling? Or was this guy speaking in Latin or something? If he was speaking in latin (and this guy never studied latin), then maybe I might accept that it was somewhat possible that “it is a gift that you receive when someone prays on you”. But if he was just mumbeling, then I stand by my explanation.

By ’decency’ - I mean exactly what I’ve been saying since I started replying to this topic. I mean ’principles of human decency’ - as in ’not killing anyone’.

What you said made no sense. All you people can express yourself, but then when I express myself (someone who doesn’t follow religion), I get slammed?

Makes no sense to me...

RoxHard said on June 22, 2004 23:33:

SUMMERY OF ALL DISCUSSED:

- ’Dewie from Malcolm In The Middle’ statment.
- Bacterium.
- Forced religion.
- Utopia.
- The Fish story - ’Mitosis/Cloning’.
- Interpreting the bible.
- The “I’m so glad you’re becoming a Christian” remark.
- “I was right to use the word mitosis”.
- “Taking this ’Utopia’ thing out of context”.
- “The Vatican afraid of the Gospels of St. John” (from Stigmata film).
- Further distortion of ’Mitosis’.
- Persecution of ’KKK’.
- Someone said something really nasty about me being “Hitler’s younger brother”.
- “Sugar & spice & all things nice”
- “I am not Bigoted”
- “Question Of The Day”
- Someone got confused about archiving.
- Tongues.
- Further discussion of decency.

Have I missed the comment about me calling you all Abba fans or something? Otherwise, I fail to see why you’re all so mad at me.

RoxHard said on June 23, 2004 01:06:

I’ve just listened to this song, and I couldn’t help but think of this topic. I hope it has some resonance for you too...

Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

You may say I’m a dreamer,
but I’m not the only one,
I hope some day you will join us,
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I’m a dreamer,
but I’m not the only one,
I hope some day you will join us,
And the world will live as one.

“but I’m not the only one” - you certainly aren’t John!

eyerun said on June 24, 2004 03:00:

roxhard, its not that I am turing on you. Its just that you come across as very argumentative. Sometimes its hard for me to listen when someone acts all defensive and conflicting. I don’t think its your ideas so much that everyone is turning on, but its your tone that you use when posting.
As for the song, I have heard it many times and thought ...boy what an ideal world. I think it is beautiful. However, there is something that tells me that there is more to life than just earth and the basic daily ways. Its something that lies deep within my soul...like there is something more. If it is “heaven” I don’t know...but its something marvelous.

Superbullie said on June 24, 2004 05:32:

No

RoxHard said on June 24, 2004 20:52:

I would naturally type more, based on all of LittleSpooky’s post. But, as you can see from my previous post - it’s all out of context. She did not take into account any of the other posts from other people. And I’m not in the humour of typing up responses for half an hour, based on a post that is as inacurate as saying Roxette have had 13 UK #1’s.

lol... hardly!

RoxHard said on June 24, 2004 21:14:

I am merely saying what I seen in the ending credits of the Stigmata film!

“You ATTEMPT to “educate” me, you basically “perjure” all your previous posts: “Littlespooky: if you were paying attention to my postings, you will notice that I am a strong believer in free choice. I have never done what it is you are saying I have done. I have never persecuted anyone for their religious beliefs - in fact, it’s the opposite. I have only ever said that I am intolerant of forcing your religious views on anyone else (were you not reading my ’principles of decency’ post?!).” Once again, did you or did you not state that you HATE it when someone else forces their religious beliefs upon others? You “claim” to be a “strong believer in free choice”, but yet, in all your posts to date, you are forcing your beliefs on everyone else by subjugating theirs.”

I have NO religious beliefs to begin with - how can I be “forcing my beliefs” on you?

Bottom line...
If I find out that I’m wrong to not believe in a religion that I feel makes no sense to me, then fine... I’ll live happily in hell - with my booze, with my orgies, with my drugs that can’t do any liver damage (seeing as I am already dead) - then fine, I can live with that.

But, if I’m right here... and if religion is a whole load of bs, then I expect an apology from every single one of you!

Deal? {RoxHard puts right-hand out}

LittleSpooky said on June 25, 2004 03:02:

RoxHard: Obviously you don’t know ANYTHING about the United States Bill of Rights.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Now... which one were you ATTEMPTING to quote? The Second Amendment? Let’s see...
“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

Not too smart, are you?

Taking things out of context? Does anyone else see the same thing I am? Or am I imagining it? I’m giving RoxHard his EXACT words and he’s telling ME I’m taking it out of context? That’s rich. TAKE THE HINT ROXHARD... YOU’VE INSULTED MORE PEOPLE HERE THAN YOU REALIZE AND YOU CAN’T JUSTIFY IT FOR ALL THE WORLD.

LittleSpooky said on June 25, 2004 05:03:

*snickers*

LittleSpooky said on June 28, 2004 01:54:

Spooky took some time off this weekend:

I went camping and put some stuff into perspective.

RoxHard: You just ain’t worth the effort. In my line of work, you just ain’t worth the piss in the cup for a drug screen. And I don’t care if you think that’s un-lady like. Ask the folks around here, I’m not one. And for an asshole like you, I’ll never be one.

And QUITE PROUD OF THAT FACT TOO.

RoxHard said on June 28, 2004 02:22:

I’m off to do something useful, for a change.

With the odd 5 hours I have before I have to leave for work tomorrow, I’m gonna go play my Legacy Of Kain: Defiance PS2 game.

Does anybody have a problem with that? Judging by your tone, Lil’Spooky - I’d say you would!

kachina008 said on June 29, 2004 14:59:

now *this* is a new low

yuck.

kachina008 said on June 30, 2004 07:17:

Spooks, there are others that appreciate you and your thinking, ya know :P

RoxHard said on July 2, 2004 01:11:

kachina008: well?

carbon_boy said on July 2, 2004 07:33:

Oh deary me. RoxHard has invaded this topic as well. Let’s see now. Where do we begin?

Let us start at the very beginning - the whole: “Don’t force your religion on me” thing. Yes, strangely enuff, I do agree with that. I don’t want ANYONE to force their religion on me... BUT, I have not seen ANYONE force any kind of religious view on ANYONE so far in this topic, except for our friend RoxHard. You insult, enforce and mis-interperet. Religion is a very touchy subject, and great care should be taken when one speaks about it. NO ONE has exactly the same views on religion. One might share certain views, but no one will 100% agree with anyone else on everything. That’s why we are what we are. Individuals. And the day you grow up and realise that, then you can start throwing your “Freedom of Speech” weight around.

Yes, everyone on this forum has freedom of speech. Freedom of insulting, judging and flaming, NO. You on the other hand have used what you call freedom of speech to do just that, and then at the same time your arguments and statements come off as childish, sheepish, uninformed and plain weak. For example: “Like I really care about the Second Amendment? It’s all just a bunch of hypocritical rubbish anyway! In that 2nd Amendment thing - they must have left out the part where they state that it’s alright to go and create unjust wars - and then rape their prisoners!!!” Well now, See what I mean? And you are the one to talk about being hypocrytical! Arent you from the UK? Correct me if I’m wrong, but Bush & Blair, hand in hand, f*cktup Iraq. Get your facts straight next time. If you dont even know jack about whats happening in the world at this moment in time, then how the f*ck can you comment on the Bible, and religion?! “you will notice that I am a strong believer in free choice.” Ahem, excuse me, what’s that? FREE CHOICE?! Screw the RoxHard nik, you should call yourself Jeckyll&Hyde! If you are so “for free choice” then you wouldn’t be bullying everyone to disbelieve what they have believed in for years. You can’t change the way people think and what they believe in, they have the freedom of choice to make that decision themselves. Once again, I doubt you understand the concept of freedom in its entirity.

I have read more books on the subject (religion and anthropology) than you can imagine, it’s a hobby of mine. I believe all religions stem from the same. I don’t point fingers, I dont judge. I might not agree with everything, but I do understand why things are the way they are. I don’t think anyone above the age of 16 still believes that Adam and Eve were the only 2 people on earth. If they do, good for them. It’s what they believe. I dont think anyone above the age of 16 see the bible as a history and geography textbook. If they do, good for them. That’s what they believe. The Bible, etc are guides for us to live our lives by. Too many people get caught up in the fact of whether the stories, etc are true or false. But that is for them to decide, and not for you to enforce. Yes, true, ppl come to your door and pushes a pamflet or book into your hand, stating that their religion is the only true religion. Good for them if that is what they believe. You making the comment that they are enforcing their religion upon you is totally absurd. They are giving you the choice to decide for yourself. We might close the door and forget about it, or embrace whatever they had to say. Unlike you, where no one is agreeing with you, therefore you wont leave. It’s called ENFORCING. The fact that you can’t deal with people not sharing the same view as you, keep on pestering, judging and insulting them, shows how determined you are to enforce those views on them!

So, what have we all learned today children? Say it together: Everyone is different, everyone has a right to think for themselves, everyone has the right to believe in whatever he/she believes and everyone thinks RoxHard should go wash his hands.

Dude, you look like a complete w*nker to everyone at the moment. So why dont you just p*ss off.

Btw, Im a Hare Krishna, and I’ll only shake hands with you if we can use our left hands.

Cheers, thanx a lot.

carbon_boy said on July 6, 2004 08:04:

@kachina: LOL! I was just being sarcastic towards RoxHard for having a wee, not washing his hands and then “shaking hands” with everyone who’s been disagreeing with him. Look up on why i said what i said. ;o)

Cheers

carbon_boy said on July 6, 2004 11:07:

;o)

purplemedusa said on July 6, 2004 19:35:

How is it possable that I’ve missed all this excitement? Darn! I wanted to have a go @ roxhard! *PM goes to the corner & sulk*

LittleSpooky said on July 6, 2004 19:41:

And it also softens skin (ie: Your hands after a long day in the fields. I learned THAT in my Spanish 103 class in college!)

eyerun said on July 7, 2004 20:40:

what do yous feel that do/don’t believe in god?

How do you live your life? What keeps you happy? What keeps you motivated? What gives your life direction? What do you confide in? Who do you talk to in your roughest moments? What do you do when your scared? What do you believe in? How do you view relationships? What turns you away from religion? What is your purpose in life?

THats all I can think of now. I don’t want sarcastic remarks, but show me that you’ve really thought long and hard about your decision to believe/not believe.

Ferdan said on July 12, 2004 06:53:

The Rabid Atheist

By Drenched

This essay focuses on answering a reasonable question that many Christians have asked atheists, concerning why some atheists seem to feel so “rabid” about their beliefs (or lack thereof) and why some atheists “feel so threatened” by Christianity. I think this can best be answered by a brief examination of Christianity’s history, teachings, and goals for the future from an atheist’s point of view.

While I don’t mean to offend, this essay is complete with my emotions on the issues brought up, because answering the question of “Why do some atheists feel...” is impossible without expressing my feelings.

Christian History:
You probably already know that “he who forgets history is condemned to repeat it”. If you’ve studied history, you also might guess that almost two thousand years of persecution, torture, and death at the hands of Christians may have something to do with non-believers feeling threatened.

It is a historical fact that Christianity is responsible for almost two thousand years of intellectual oppression, brutally enforced tyranny spread by violent invasions, and millions of lost human lives. From the crusades to the witchburnings, from the Inquisition to Galileo’s forced recantation of his theories, Christians have ruled with fear and violence, systematically destroying all new thought and ideas that might threaten their dogma and thus threaten their power.

With the church’s iron fist insisting that the world is flat, that we are the center of the universe and the sun revolves around us, and that any progressive thinking contradicting its absurd mythology is blasphemy, punishable by torture and death, is it any wonder we had the Dark Ages?

Without almost 2000 years of intellectual and physical oppression, it is easily conceivable that perhaps mankind would have put a man on the moon 500 years ago instead of 30 years ago. Imagine the technology we could have today, bio-engineered crops feeding the world’s hungry, medical technology eradicating disease forever, weather control preventing drought and natural disaster, alternative fuels that don’t pollute. But, alas, the church vigorously stamped out all science (truth) that threatened the dogma (mythology) which gives the church its power.

Of course an omnipotent god could have simply made the planet better. All trees could bear fruit, all the soil could be fertile, weather could be more mild, disease might not exist, but instead god supposedly punishes us all for the sins of one woman, and then religion deprives us of the science we need to prevent the plague, famine, and catastrophes that god supposedly causes/allows.

Contrary to Christian belief, America was not founded on Christian principles. Quite the opposite, this country was founded to escape the Christian principles that had oppressed Europeans for centuries. If you doubt this, check out the evidence compiled by a Christian writer at http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm. The founding fathers’ ideas of separation of Church and State, and the freedom of religion they wrote into our founding documents, are both obvious efforts to prevent the Christian tyranny and persecution from which they had recently escaped.

Once the church had been stripped of political power in America by separating Church and State, new ideas could flow freely without fear of torture (bar the occasional witchburning), and the technology behind the industrial revolution was possible. The results of this are self evident. In two hundred years, technology born of free thought has improved the human condition all over the globe far more than submissively praying to god could do in two thousand years. What if this had been allowed to happen 500 years before, or a 1000 years before? Where would we be today? Christianity literally robbed us all of the possibility of having “heaven on earth” right here, right now, today.

Forgive the past “mistakes” of the church? Systematic persecution is not a mistake. Black culture has not forgiven the slave owners, and Jews have certainly not forgiven the Nazis. Christian atrocities were FAR worse than both of these put together, and outlasted both of these by over a thousand years. History clearly shows that ideas like slave ownership, Nazism, and Christianity should not be tolerated, much less forgiven. These ideas will eventually be eradicated, and stamped out forever, but not by violence. Unlike Christianity, truth and morality do not require violence nor evangelism to gain converts, only freedom of thought and expression.

How dare I compare Christians to Nazis and slave owners? Nazis were Christians whose standard issue Nazi beltbuckles bore the words “Gott ist mit uns”, or “God is with us”. Slave owners were Christians, and rules for slave ownership are clearly defined in many places within the Bible, including but not limited to Exodus 21:2-7.

Christian Teachings:
All tyrants must make and enforce rules that prevent speaking out against said tyrant (or taking his name in vain), and that prevent the rise of competing tyrants (or false idols). Please re-read the first three commandments, and ask yourself why this all powerful god is so insecure? Freedom of speech against god and freedom of religion are criminalized in the commandments at an even higher level than murder is criminalized, thus paving the way in the Christian conscience to silence, persecute, torture, murder, and convert these blasphemous “criminals”.

The Bible, especially The Old Testament, paints a wrathful, angry, jealous, insecure, vengeful god that Christians worship, and their religion is at heart no different. Some say these are just stories, to illustrate some illusive set of ideas. After reading (cover-to-cover more than once) the hodge-podge of contradictions that Christians call the “infallible word of god”, I have only discerned one consistent message that permeates the entire book. It is that devotion to god is always more important than human life. This theme is driven home again and again throughout both Testaments. Just about every atrocity one can think of is justified in the Bible when doing god’s will. This provides Christians a clear conscience to commit their atrocities, conquests, and persecutions, so long as they are done in god’s name.

For example, the Nazi holocaust is child’s play compared to Moses’ exploits of looting, pillaging, rape, and wholesale slaughter of women and children. But to a Christian that is okay because his victims were heathens or pagans. After sacking a city and killing all the adult males, Moses’ troops would return with the spoils, and he would order them to kill all the captured adult women and male children, but any female virgins were kept alive to be raped by the soldiers. I’m not making this up, read your own Bible, Numbers 31:7-18. This is only one of hundreds of examples in the Bible of how spreading human suffering and death, mass murder, rape, and torture, are good things done by good people like Moses, so long as it’s in the name of the “Lord” and the victims are “non-believers”. What sort of morals does Christianity really teach when its heroes consistently break the last seven commandments in the name of the first three?

(It amazes me how anyone who has actually read the Bible can still want to worship that god.)

Another example of divinely inspired immorality is that today’s Church is a haven for pedophiles, whose crimes against children are routinely covered up with the divine goal of protecting the “integrity” of god’s Church. An embarrassed clergy quietly transfers the offender to a new church where he has a fresh new crop of young choirboys to prey upon, because anything is okay when done in god’s best interest. What does this teach us about the morals of those closest to god? Perhaps it teaches that freedom to masturbate without guilt is a good idea, and that the intense sexual repression born of the perversion called “Christian sexual morality” often comes to the surface in the form of hideous sex crimes.

Any female Christians out there? The next time you are having menstrual cramps and bleeding, or enduring the indescribable pain of childbirth, keep in mind that this is all part of a specific curse put upon you by god himself, to punish you for disobedience. Shame be yours forever, for the sin of seeking knowledge (which is not a very emotionally healthy thing to tell a young girl). God punished you severely for exercising the “god-given gift” of freewill, and would have rather had you submissively frolicking in Eden’s ignorance forever. Of course ignorance is bliss, so don’t give up girls, because eternal bliss can still be found through Christ.

Regardless, having a choice between doing god’s will, or burning in hell for eternity, is not any sort of free will at all. Things done under duress, such as threat of eternal punishment, are things done by slaves, not by free human beings. As an atheist I do good things because I freely choose to be a good person, not because I fear hell.

Christians believe that as humans we cannot have morality without faith in their god. Not only is this belief obviously untrue when looking at non-Christian cultures, it also devalues humanity to a level below animals, and shows how little faith Christians have in the human race and in themselves.

I ask how Christians can be moral, with a god that takes credit for all their achievements, while satan takes the blame for all their wrongdoing, and any residual responsibility they might feel for their actions is absolved at the confessional. An atheist is obligated to accept responsibility for his actions right here and now in this earthly life, because there is no one else to blame, and no one to forgive him.

Christian Goals for the Future:
“Oh, but those atrocities were a long time ago, and Christianity is not like that anymore,” you say? The Neo-Nazi party isn’t “like that” anymore either, but that does not make their ideas okay. They would do it again if they could and so would you. Admit you think the world would be a better place if everyone were a Christian (or better yet, if there were no non-Christians), admit that you think you’re somehow above others because you are “saved”, admit that your morals fall short when doing “god’s” work. Just ask any homosexual after a fag-bashing, or any abortion doctor. I used to have a “darwin fish” on my car, and had to take it off because you “moral” people would literally try to run me off the road. You still try to oppress new thought (Kansas creationism) and your televangelist still refer to their work as a “crusade”. Dear god, please protect me from those who believe in you.

Christians continue to erode the beneficial separation of Church and State at every turn. Only in the last fifty years have they managed to add “In God We Trust” to our currency, and the words “under God” to our pledge of allegiance. I can’t count the number of times I was kicked out of homeroom class for refusing to say that part of the pledge. Sure felt like persecution to me.

Since the founding of our country, and for hundreds of years after, these words were not part of our currency nor our pledge. These words were added during the 1950’s by Christians following McCarthy on yet another brutal Christian witch-hunt against American citizens who chose not to believe, based on a lie spread by Christians that atheists are somehow all communists.

Now they want to post their Ten Commandments of Intolerance in our public schools for all our impressionable Buddhist, Hindu, and atheist children to see, informing them that their revered god is a “false idol”, or their atheist father will go to hell for “taking the lords name in vain”. How dare Christians make the assertion to children that worshiping a different god is an equal crime to killing another man? At this age children still believe in Santa, and there is still a good chance of infecting them with the Christian disease.

My last job was at a Catholic owned company, and I watched as Catholics were promoted unfairly, and even segregated in a separate building. The Human Resources administrator once actually referred to me as a “heathen”. That’s your word for us, right? A lot easier to trod upon a heathen, or a nigger, or a raghead, than upon a human being.

“Onward Christian Soldier.” A familiar slogan, but what does that mean? A soldier only has one purpose, and that is to kill. Are you saying you want to kill me? A handgun’s only purpose is to kill, and so some people want them banned. I say we ban Christian Soldiers instead. I might need my gun to protect myself against Christian Soldiers one day, as so many thousands of people have needed their swords in the past.

“But at MY church it isn’t all fire and brimstone, they teach us about love for god and one another!” The church today is having to adapt quickly in order to survive the freedom of thought that threatens it, and to retain a shadow of its former power. Your numbers are dwindling. You hear sermons about loving one another in church only because today’s educated man will no longer tolerate the fire and brimstone threats. The tobacco industry has got a good “hook” too, but so what. You don’t need to be in church to speak of love.

Pascal’s Wager:
“What if when you die, to your surprise you find yourself on heaven’s gates, awaiting judgment, then what?” In the highly unlikely event that I find myself in this situation, then I will stand up tall and unafraid, secure in the knowledge that I have reasonable questions on which I have pondered all my life. I will demand answers for the human condition, answers for the misery inflicted on us, answers for the blood shed in his name. I respect and value the human race, and I will not tolerate my fellow humans to be treated this way, not even by our creator. If god does not (or can not) have the grace to answer my valid concerns, then I will look forward to hell and gladly join Lucifer in his rebellion against this unjust, ego-maniac of a tyrant. At least there are no accounts in the Bible of satan raining sulfur on populated cities, or drowning the worlds inhabitants in a flood. A just god could not possibly expect me to willingly choose to worship him after committing such heinous crimes against my fellow humanity.

When we look outside U.S. borders and consider that there are millions more Buddhist people in the world than there are Christians, it all suddenly seems very narrow minded. Does Christ routinely send the yellow heathens to burn forever in hell, or are they all just miserably “separated from god” in some limbo?

If god is benevolent, then why should I fear him on judgment day? If god is not benevolent, then why should I worship him at all? Pascal recommended we wager our entire lives on the fear that a cruel god might exist and torture us eternally. No thank you, I’ll place my bet on the human race, the existence of which is not in question. If Pascal is right, then god is morally reprehensible, and heaven is beneath my dignity.

Conclusion:
Although my thoughts and the words that express them here are harsh and strong, they are only words and thoughts, and it would be inaccurate for Christians to perceive from my “rabid” atheism as a threat. I have no desire to lower myself to the Christian level and establish an “atheist inquisition” or “atheist crusades”. The thought of doing so turns my stomach, as it should any logical, moral, thinking man. I believe the Christian social disease is dying out on its own, and will continue to do so, as the light of science gets brighter and continues to shine down and burn the vampire that once sucked the life from humanity. As a child outgrows Santa, our adolescent culture is outgrowing its need for Christianity.

Most Christians are nice enough people on the surface (even if often judgmental and condescending), but as a religion they are power-mad and inherently evil. There is certainly something evil about supporting a belief system so firmly rooted in violence, terror, corruption, lies, and failed prophecy.

It pains me when I see my loved ones afflicted with this disease, basing their belief system in absurdity, and making decisions that are often as absurd and detrimental as the beliefs they are based on.

Following is a link for those who still believe the Bible is the infallible word of god, or those who doubt that the Bible describes hundreds of crimes against humanity committed in the name of god. Atheist will get a good laugh, and Christians will get confused or angry and dismiss it as heresy:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

I hope I have not offended anyone too much by stating what I believe to be truth. I hope this answers why non-believers “feel so threatened.” I hope I have made you think, even if you only think that you hate me. I am curious if the Christian mentality even allowed any of you to read this far.

If so, let me part with one thought on the “cherished” value of faith: Faith is intellectual bankruptcy. To ask that a belief be accepted on faith is to admit that the belief cannot be accepted on its own merits. To believe without reason is irresponsible, and to act on such beliefs is evil. No human is truly evil, but faith enables good people to commit evil and feel good about it. Think about what the Christian Crusaders, the Nazis, and the terrorists of 9/11 had in common (this is why we fear you), and replace your own evil faith with healthy questions.

Good luck to all, especially Christians.

Ferdan said on July 12, 2004 10:36:

Just in case, I just quoted all of that from an editorial.

I don’t agree with all of what he said, but he covered a lot of things that had to be said here.

My personal position is that I don’t care what you believe, but as long as it is just a “belief” you shouldn’t go and build and organize churchs and temples and get preachy because what happens out of that is what’s been happening in 2000 years of christianity. Dark ages an all.

Power corrupts, organized institutions build power...
guess how the equation ends...

Ferdan said on July 15, 2004 05:55:

Well, politheism makes way more sense than monotheism :)

zeeshan said on July 20, 2004 02:16:

http://www.irf.net/concept_of_god_in_major_religions.zip

z