Lennon said on October 10, 2008 11:24:

Hello goetz!

No, I do not agree. In all times there have been very simple and very complex song-structures. Remember “Lady in black” by Uriah Heep for example. Two chords that are the base of the whole track. Great, don’t you think? And many old singer/songwriter-classics are just verse after verse, no variations at all. And many of them are great!

On the other hand: yes, of course, a minimal songwriting can be boring. An example for a really bad and boring song to me is Bruce Springsteens “Born in the USA”, totally annoying, more than 4 minutes the same theme again and again and again. So, this was in the 80s, not today!

My conclusion: it’s not a phenomenon of these days, and it’s not true that there were “good old times of songwriting”. Maybe the old songwriters built the base, that is still used today. BNut this means: keep it simple! It’s an old tradition!

Yes, I get your point: Some songs (today or 30 years ago) just sound uninspired. I listen to music of unsigned artist quite often, cause I’m active in a homerecording-community. And very often I find tracks that are too complex and do not work, because a clear structure is missing. 7 Minutes with 5 different non-repeating segments is just too much to reach the listener. Music functions not like a novel you read. It is prosessed by other neuronal parts in the brian that are there to recognize simple patterns (for example, most beats are based on “4” or “3”; the “4”-beats can be also seen as “2”-beats. Numbers from 1 to 3 are the most basal structures alls mammals can recognize. It works automatically, but to listen to a 7/4-beat you have to count)

I think it’s the other way round:
Songwriting does not mean only to bundle ideas in one song. It very very often means to delete ideas, to focus on the important things that make your creation work! Yes, it means that you have to get rid of a solo, a bridge or a modulation sometimes. Like building a sculpture you have to put away most of the elements created in the “brainstorming”-phase of your songwriting-process.

It the same like living-beings develope: they delete structures during ontogenesis, delete neurons that are not needed, delete parts of the hands to built fingers (that would become fins otherwise).

To me it is important that I believe in what I hear in a song. It should sound authentic and should be delivered in an authentic way. No filling-words, please! It is very rare that artists succeed to write pop-music (we are talking about this genre here, I think) that is complex AND works for the listener. “Bohemian Rhapsody” or “The Prophet’s Song” by Queen are big and outstanding examples here. But listening carefully to those songs you recognize that there is not one word, not one melody just to fill it, just to make it “more complex”. It is there because it has a meaning in the song! And the same band released “Another 0ne bites the dust”, which is very much the opposite!

I do not get the following point:
Why do you think, old Gessle-Songs were more complex? “The Look” or “Spending my time” or “It Must Have Been Love” are very classical, aren’t they? And the Medley on the SOAP-Record is very colourful, but is a current production. So, do you have some examples why you think this has changed to a negative way?

Greetings

Mario

–
Download our songs:
http://www.melancholodic.de

mixella1 said on October 10, 2008 17:06:

A complex one i think it’s Boemian Rapsody by Queen, right?

RobS said on October 10, 2008 23:14:

I haven’t really taken much notice of the songs over the past few years, but there are only so many ways you can put a song together. I’m sure if you go thru PG’s catalogue of songs you will find that he’s probably used every common variation plus more.

Also i don’t think that the structure of the song is the most important aspect. A song can be just verse/chorus/verse/chorus/solo/chorus/outro (like many of PG’s songs are) but how the lyrics & music come together is what creates the atmosphere of the song. You can have the most complicated structure, but if the music is crap with lyrics that don’t fit, it won’t make it a good song.

I had a listen to Metallica’s new album the other week. Every song is 6min+, i found i got bored half way through almost every song, which just seemed to hammer on with no signs of ending. Also the lyrics seem to go on like novels compared to some of PG’s.

PG has always said that he’s a fan of the 3min pop song, and he’s put out his fair share of them, but he knows how to write a 5min power ballad that rocks as well.

After reading this thread i just realised that 7twenty7 doesn’t actually have a chorus.

Lennon said on October 11, 2008 10:20:

@Chrisitan!

Grrrr, I deleted my answer before sending. So gain:

You asked for the homerecording-portal I am in. So we are leaving topic now:
_________
It’s called “MyOwnMusic” and is very nice! Made in German language, so maybe a little bit hard to navigate thru for a non-german-speaker. But much better arranged than myspace! You can upload your OWN songs there to (if you have WRITTEN and PRODUCED them on your own and did not licence them to other labels/publishing-companies or BMI/GEMA etc). You can write and receive reviews, add friends and join the forum.

Here some links to artists I like to listen to very much:

André Weet (singer/songwriter; english lyrics):
http://www.myownmusic.de/artistpage_info.php?artist_id=31706

The Maximilians (melodic and powerfull alternative-popsongs in English)
http://www.myownmusic.de/artistpage_info.php?artist_id=110876

David Bowman (beautiful melodies and very special lyrics in German):
http://www.myownmusic.de/artistpage_info.php?artist_id=120083

Eigentlich (singer/songwriter, nice experiments between acoustic and electro-pop, German):
http://www.myownmusic.de/artistpage_info.php?artist_id=9382

And finally the page with our own songs there:
http://melancholodic.myownmusic.de
_________

So, back to topic now: those artists I adviced all write songs with classical song structures. Maybe that’s why I like it?

Mario

–
Download our songs:
http://www.melancholodic.de

DEFAULT_GREEN said on October 16, 2008 13:06:

I agree with the original post.

Most of you are not getting what he is saying...

Listen to Joyride or the Big L and then listen to One Wish, ON, ...

In the last two songs there is a verse, chorus verse....nothing special in the music, no little bits of guitar playing no little bit of enhancements, just the beat and a backtrack, earlier songs seem to have 2 singers, the vocalist and the music itself. A song can have to chords for sure and be a great song, but that has got nothing to do with the amount of chords it the amount of effort made in the music. listen to to Joyride and Big L

7-Twenty-7 said on October 16, 2008 15:10:

In ON there are ’little bits of guitar’. But you also quote songs from the “Joyride” era. In the same way, were is the guitar in songs like “Paint”? But you cannot compare ON with One Wish, ON is a million times better!

DEFAULT_GREEN said on October 16, 2008 18:58:

Let me try to explain it this way:

in Joyride: I it the road out of nowhere (ta ta ta), I had to jump in my car (dun dun dun dun dun dun).... don’t need no book of wisdom, I get no money talk at all (whisle), song changes the whole time, then long chorus then short chorus then loud chorus then mixed chorus then nice guitar inbetweens, whistle

in song like on, it is as if the music is there becuase it has to be so lets just through on a backtrack and make some vibrations in in the correct key and then we sing along.

there is no more interesting little guitar riffs between lyrics, or interresting piano tunes after a word, the songs are so predictable...

DEFAULT_GREEN said on October 17, 2008 06:09:

@7Twenty7: I don’t really care for the length of the song... short... long, does not really matter to me, what I have a problem with is the following:

When you have a lot of weird and fun and interesting twists happening in the song the more likely the longer the song will last. I LOVED one wish when it came out... but now it is boring becuase if you have heard the first 10 seconds of the song you have heard the whole song. Nothing interesting music wise or Vocal wise in the song, no nice changes, no nice in betweens...

Reveal i LOVE and i still LOVE it today, and that is a plain and simple song, but the music is like a second vocal in that song, where as the music in songs like ON and ONE wish is just a bactrack

Wicf said on October 17, 2008 18:20:

From your comments it seems like all today’s songs are predictable, they have the most simple structure ever, there are no clever details... OK, I totally disagree. I repeat, I’ve heard so many songs from the last years, that are as good as songs from 80’s and 90’s, they have clever ideas, great arangment, untypical structure, they’re quite long... and of course there’s been a lot of crap music lately... It has always been the same, although early 90’s were the most amazing period in music history

fridapeeples said on October 18, 2008 01:31:

I agree with the comment regarding the part that production plays into the songs.

It was on “Crash! Boom! Bang!” that I suddenly felt that Per’s song structure became rather predictable and repetitous: Verse/ verse/ chorus/ verse/ chorus / middle-eight/chorus/fade out. The middle-eights in particular seemed to come out of nowhere and I think this had as much to do with the production (if not more so) than the songs themselves.

I am thinking of songs such as “What’s She Like” and “Do You Wanna Do The Whole Way” where the middle-eights, as produced, completely interrupt the flow of the songs. “Fireworks” and “Run To You” for example, have a more fluid production where the songs build and sound like one piece. I don’t know what was going with “Crash! Boom! Bang!” but I find the overall album to contain too many ideas and experiments production wise. “Room Service” actually works much better as an album and has an overall cohesiveness that makes it work and the songs generally come off better.

Per’s actual songwriting has changed very little structurally over the years and he has seemed to experiment more in the studio. I am actually curious to hear if this concept of writing to a groove has changed his song structure at all or has just influenced the rhythm and melodies.

DEFAULT_GREEN said on October 20, 2008 20:24:

’You said it very well:
And of course there had been “production-tricks” and instrumental licks all over the place that did not just appear to be playing in the backround but were interacting with the leadvocals.”

and not just Per’s songs it is all over the song, except Mika had a step in the right direction... anyway

when I song has got background music it is boring, but as soon as the music becomes like a second vocal THAT is when the song is gets interesting cause now you find yourself singing... I hit the road out of nowhere ( and then you actually sing with the sound and say: “dun dun dun dun dun dun” asif the instrument is an vocal itself) where as if that part was left out you would just have waited for the next line in the verse to start.. I am just using Joyride as an example... there are ALOT of Roxette songs that is well produced.

I remember Per said in an interview that back then they did not really knew what they were doing and they just did what they thought sounded great. Now they are trying to be to “musically correct” rather than being fun and interesting... anyway you know what i mean

RobS said on October 21, 2008 12:39:

pwbbounce said: “Where are all the middle eights on HAND and RS?

Just had a quick listen thru HAND, most songs do have a middle-eight, and there is quite a variety in the song structure (verse/chorus, not production wise). They just might not stick out as much or are as recognisable as some of the older ones.

Also the middle-8 in Try is great, to the point i think it could make a great song on its own.

Could it be that everyone has real short attention spans these days thanks to the multitude of information we have access too? A short song is just long enough to listen to without being bored or “wasting” too much time.

No doubt the long mega-ballads will come back one day though.