The Daily Roxette discussions forum has been closed. The forum is only available as a read-only archive.
Parliment in Spain defies Conservatives and Clergy
33 replies
LittleSpooky said on June 30, 2005 10:21:
Spain Legalizes Same-Sex Marriages
By MAR ROMAN, Associated Press Writer
20 minutes ago
MADRID, Spain - Parliament legalized gay marriage Thursday, defying conservatives and clergy who opposed making traditionally Roman Catholic Spain the third country to allow same-sex unions nationwide. Jubilant gay activists blew kisses to lawmakers after the vote.
The measure passed the 350-seat Congress of Deputies 187-147. The bill, part of the ruling Socialists’ aggressive agenda for social reform, also lets gay couples adopt children and inherit each others’ property.
The bill is now law. The Senate, where conservatives hold the largest number of seats, rejected the bill last week. But it is an advisory body and final say on legislation rests with the Congress of Deputies.
After the final tally was announced, gay and lesbian activists watching from the spectator section of the ornate chamber cried, cheered, hugged, waved to lawmakers and blew them kisses.
Several members of the conservative opposition Popular Party, which was vehemently opposed to the bill, shouted: “This is a disgrace.” Those in favor stood and clapped.
The Netherlands and Belgium are the only other two countries that allow gay marriage nationwide. Canada’s House of Commons passed legislation Tuesday that would legalize gay marriage; its Senate is expected to pass the bill into law by the end of July.
Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero noted this in debate before the vote.
“We were not the first, but I am sure we will not be the last. After us will come many other countries, driven, ladies and gentlemen, by two unstoppable forces: freedom and equality,” he told the chamber.
Zapatero said the reform of Spanish legal code simply adds one dry paragraph of legalese but means much more.
He called it “a small change in wording that means an immense change in the lives of thousands of citizens. We are not legislating, ladies and gentlemen, for remote unknown people. We are expanding opportunities for the happiness of our neighbors, our work colleagues, our friends, our relatives.”
Zapatero lacks a majority in the chamber but got help from small regional-based parties that tend to be his allies.
Spanish gay couples can get married as soon as the law is published in the official government registry. This could come as early as Friday, or within two weeks at the latest, parliament’s press office said.
Popular Party leader Mariano Rajoy said after the vote that Zapatero has deeply divided Spain and should have sought a consensus in parliament that recognized same-sex unions but didn’t call them marriage. Rajor said that if the vast majority of countries in the world don’t accept gay marriage, including some run by Socialists, there must be a reason.
“I think the prime minister has committed a grave act of irresponsibility,” Rajor told reporters.
The gay marriage bill was the boldest and most divisive initiative of the liberal social agenda Zapatero has embarked on since taking office in April 2004. Parliament overhauled Spain’s 25-year-old divorce law on Wednesday, also irking the church, by letting couples end their marriage without a mandatory separation or having to state a reason for the split-up, as required under the old law.
He has also pushed through legislation allowing stem-cell research and wants to loosen Spain’s restrictive abortion law.
The Roman Catholic Church, which held much sway over the government just a generation ago when Gen. Francisco Franco was in power, had adamantly opposed gay marriage. In its first display of anti-government activism in 20 years, it endorsed a June 18 rally in which hundreds of thousands marched through Madrid in opposition to the bill. Some 20 bishops took part in the June 18 rally.
On Wednesday, a Catholic lay group called the Spanish Family Forum presented lawmakers with a petition bearing 600,000 signatures as a last-minute protest.
Late last year, the spokesman for the Spanish Bishops Conference, Antonio Martinez Camino said that allowing gay marriage was like “imposing a virus on society - something false that will have negative consequences for social life.”
Despite the street protests in Madrid and elsewhere and the petition drive, polls suggest Spaniards supported gay marriage.
A survey released in May by pollster Instituto Opina said 62 percent of Spaniards support the government’s action on this issue, and 30 percent oppose it. The poll had a margin of error of 3 percentage points. But surveys show Spaniards about evenly split over whether gay couples should be allowed to adopt children.
coyboyusa said on June 30, 2005 20:58:
am i the onyl one who would rather see a gay rights bill amended to constitutions of countries before a limp marriage bill?/ frankly i’d rather make it illegal to fire me or murder me because of my orientation before i worry about getting married which basically is an element of a religion that says homosexuality is a disease anyway
LittleSpooky said on June 30, 2005 21:07:
It’s a start Coy.
Surely you realize that battles must be picked and waged carefully, or else you lose the entire “war”. I say it’s a step in a good direction on the part of Canada and Spain.
rox-kuryliw said on June 30, 2005 21:29:
gay people should have every right as black asian , white , purple ! islamic jewish, so like said , its a start and the way forward.
Jud (moderator) said on June 30, 2005 21:54:
*yay*
I cried today when I read the news that it was _finally_ approved. I really cannot describe the feeling.. *goes and buys a ring* ;-)
But fight is not over.. those people (foro de la familia, church) still want to fight the law back, but what do you want, they live in stone age, they are even against divorce... *rolls eyes* Why can’t they mind their business? Where does so much hate come from? I can only find one answer, and it’s that since they aren’t happy with their life, they want to prevent others to be happy.
Coy: I don’t know in the US but even insulting a gay person is a crime in Spain, you can take the insulter (?) to court.. will just get a small fine but still..
LittleSpooky said on June 30, 2005 22:07:
Jude: Depends. If you just call em names, there ain’t much really someone can do. After all, it’s just childish behaviour. It’s when the harrassment continues and starts to develop into assault that it falls under the Hate Crime Law.
This is the best definition I can come up with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime
It’s got several links one can follow to read up further.
Santi said on June 30, 2005 22:49:
@coyboyusa: In Spain as Judith pointed out and I reach to know, every citizen has the same rights and discrimination of any type (included sexual orientation) goes against the very basics of our Constitution.
I do not think that in a country like Spain it is even a good idea to propose a law to protect specifically homosexuals. We’re trying to integrate, to accept, to include in our society ways of living that very sadly have been kept hidden and forbidden for as long as our country has existed, being the “Haven of Catholicism” that Spain has always been.
A specific law would be another way to segregate, another reason for people contrary to homosexuals to claim that it is something “weird” and “unnatural”. I am personally sick and tired of those people and I wouldn’t like to give them just another chance to start the discussion all over again. I am happy to think that gays and lesbian can be considered people, just people, with the same rights as any other.
I guess that in USA the situation is different, but just give it a thought. :)
brentnewtown said on July 1, 2005 10:54:
australia, where i live, likes to consider itself foward thinking and liberal yet last year passed legislation confirming marriage as being a union between a man and woman only. it has been noted (by the gay press at least) how this is so at odds with some european and other countries.
one of the costs of having a conservative government in power for ten years ...
brentnewtown said on July 1, 2005 10:57:
@coyboyusa
many countries already have gay rights legislation, so marriage is just another step towards full equality. legalised ’marriage’ may even open the door to other reform. maybe.
Oldag75 said on July 1, 2005 11:27:
Don’t you know all the gay priests in Spain are really torn by some mixed feelings over this ?
The mass is ended, thanks be to God.
Jud (moderator) said on July 1, 2005 13:49:
so.. now I have some doubts.
I live (=country of residence) in Austria (where gay marriage is not allowed, thus any gay marriage from Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, or any registered partnership in any other country such as Sweden, Norway... aren’t recognised here in Austria), but I’m Spanish.. how the hell can I make use of this Spanish law? Can I go to the Spanish Embassy here in Vienna?
*questionmark face*
rox-kuryliw said on July 1, 2005 14:13:
MOving to spain now ;-) has some good modern ideas for freedom and equality for all.
rox-kuryliw said on July 1, 2005 14:18:
the church doesnt want gay people to marry cos it fears for power of female strengh ! But a world out of balance with male and female power is not a happy world. makes the best sence iv ever hear read the di vinci code ;-) ill never look at the church and respect it the same. As for gay priest saying no to marriage , id love to know how much they were paid from the vatican seriously.
Oldag75 said on July 1, 2005 16:50:
Indeed, Spain wants freedom and equality for all... just see how they caved in to the terrorists, that last election! You blow up some trains in Spain, you turn every Spaniard into a sycophantic fawning toady lickspittle to terrorism. Ole! Ole!
rox-kuryliw said on July 1, 2005 16:54:
Oldag75 lets face it in the country you leave in has it all doenst it, equality for all , black ! asian ! gay ! non gun lovers ! war not the answer ! good friendly military to show other counties how to get it right, i mean look at all the good work your country has done for iraq (me roll eyes), ow i forgot the good honest christian male family loving & secutary loving presidents you have !, the good old usa has sure shown us other counties like spain and europe how to deal with terrorism hasnt it lol ! ! ! ! yes yes fighting is the answer blow up everything /one you think may be a terrorist dont ask them, ow in fact just blow the county up !
Jud (moderator) said on July 1, 2005 18:29:
Oldag, I am quite sure it was you who said once that we, non-us-citizens, could not have a fully right opinion about America simply because we didn’t live there (if it wasn’t you, it was another American :P).
Now I’d like to ask you to get informed about Spanish politics before stating stuff like above. What many media fail(ed) to mention is that ZP was leading in most of the polls before the 11-M, PP were too afraid to lose that they f**ked up with the way they approached the situation. They _tried_ to use the victims to win the elections that most thought they would lose by pointing ETA as the do-ers. That night and following day Austrian/German/other EU TVs and media already pointed some muslim terrorist group as the doers, in Spain (I talked with my parents and friends that night and the following day a couple of times) they were STILL living in darkness, as PP/state TV (manipulated) were pointing to ETA.
Luckily, people with access to the outside world, minor TV channels and such, started to point that out, the whole manipulation. People got angry, furious. Reacted to that. THAT, the lies, was what made people a) go to vote and b) vote for ZP in mass. The feeling that the current government was using the whole thing to win those elections which they surely would have lost (maybe not with so much difference), was their last straw in order to win and turn the results to them.
And now, let’s go back to the topic subject. Gay marriage :)
coyboyusa said on July 1, 2005 21:17:
its irinic hwo a gay right topic yet again turns into drivle about the usa
yeah gays do have to pick and choose their battles and we;re doing it backeards, we don’t have legalized gay apoption, gay civli rights ammendments, job protection or right of attorney when our partners beciome gravely ill or injured so this doesn’t impress me the least
Jud (moderator) said on July 2, 2005 08:06:
Coy: you started by talking about the situation of gay in your country, we only replied what happens in ours, which seems to be different to the US in this matter, what’s wrong with that?
It was only when Oldag “attacking” Spain that somebody else replied to it attacking US ;)
But this should be over now, as we go back to the topic :)
Santi said on July 2, 2005 08:32:
@Oldag: What do you know about terrorism in Spain???? You’re showing off your ignorance in a big way. There have been regular terrorist attacks in Spain since the seventies. Every Spaniard knows what terrorism is. Just shut up instead of trying to justify your own opinions by analizing a country of which the only thing you got right is the word “ole”.
Santi said on July 2, 2005 08:36:
@coyboyusa: And if you were married and had the same rights as any other married couple wouldn’t that solve some of the problems you’re pointing at?
Oldag75 said on July 2, 2005 14:32:
Santi, you’re going to look good in a burkha. Have you chosen your color yet? Will you be wearing dark black, light black, or medium black?
MiracleMan said on July 2, 2005 18:17:
BRAVA, JUDITH! BRAVA!
Oldag, you are such an ass! You chose THIS issue to slam Spain for their political decisions as terrorist influenced? What? Did Al Quaeda sneak in and force them to allow the “homos” to marry? You know dick about Spain and your view of it’s politics is just as fucked-up as your skewed view of US politics.
And stop trying to tell Europe their next government is an islamic fascist state. How can you expect to get respect from other nations for your own nationality when you can’t give it in the first place? Shut up and spare the rest of the US TDR members the trouble of having to read attacks on US because you can’t help yourself insulting every other country.
You are ignorant. Take your biased, conservative self-righteousness to the FOXNews. They’ll give you that reach around you so desperately want.
Jud (moderator) said on July 2, 2005 22:33:
Oldag: Santi is a guy! And this is the last post about US vs. the world. As said before, this is about gay rights/marriage.
Oldag75 said on July 2, 2005 22:50:
I think it is absolutely fine that Spain has approved gay marriage – I have no problem with any two people who love one another being married. Contrary to emotionally-based responses to the notion of gay marriage, I do not believe it will “undermine” the family unit in any fashion. Hetero folks will continue to marry, regardless of whatever gay people do, propagate our species and maintain families – the family being the basic unit of human society.
The reality of the world situation is that there is a vast sect of nihilists who are intent upon destabilizing Western Society – their creed is “destroy infidels.” These people evolved from ancient desert scavengers whose lives were so miserable that they came to believe death MUST be a better form of existence... thus they worship death. Enlightened people realized that it is incumbent upon humans to upgrade their existence, to champion LIFE and continually make it better. These nihilists have declared war upon Western Society. A grim reality is, that to win a war, you must kill enough of the enemy to convince them to change their thinking, to change their politics. That is sad and terrible, but true. Giving in to the terrorists’ desires does not placate them... they can’t be reasoned with, they can’t be bargained with. The only things they respect are force and violence, in their aim to destroy infidels.
I harbor no ill feelings for anyone expressing opinions on this forum, and I apologize to Santi for my harshly sarcastic response. I do believe, though, that those of us in the West – Europe and America, the bastions of democratic ideals – are dealing with an intractable enemy that will not quit until a sufficent number of them have been killed to make them stop, and completely reconsider their beliefs. Life, in our world today, does not have to be miserable. We know how to grow abundant food, how to stay healthy with medicine, keep our teeth clean by flossing, and enjoy human creativity (such as the brief superb guitar rock-out that Per placed at the end of “Sleeping In My Car.”)
LittleSpooky said on July 3, 2005 06:04:
Miracle: Remind me not to piss you off. I think I’d be crying afterwards...
*backs slowly away and holds up chocolate to soothe*
ncurran said on July 4, 2005 16:48:
Olddag, change the record please.....if this was a conversation about oranges and lemons you’d probably be able to link it in to america’s war on terror in some way. Get a life please!
coyboyusa said on July 4, 2005 21:43:
santi getting married doesn’t solve prejudice, just ask any black man married to a white or hispanic or asian woman. my point is is that in terms of solicng homophobia we’re working backwards, marriage for all intents and purposes is frivious, i’d rather see legal equality in terms of quality of life issues...aka job protection , civil right and hate crimes bills, marriage is frivilous
LittleSpooky said on July 4, 2005 23:38:
Coy: You’re not going to get job protection with Bush in office. You’re not going to get job protection because Regan basically disolved the unions after the Air Control Tower Operators went on strike. Unless you work a job and are a member of the Teamster’s Union... you can pretty much kiss your job good bye. I know... I was fired from my job because of politics.
There ARE hate crime laws in place. You just have to get a lawyer who is willing to fight and who is willing to go the distance for it. And you have to be able to provide proof.
None of this horseshit of “He called me a spook or he called me a nigger or he called me a queer.” That’s school yard bully antics and when you whine and cry about that, you get teased worse.... then it escalates because the aggressor now has a reason to get even. In my job I got called: “Fat cow, ugly whore, c*nt” and a hand full of other things BY THE PEOPLE I WAS TRANSPORTING. That’s right, the garbage at the homeless shelter, the people who can’t have a driver’s license because of one too many DUI’s, or accidents, or stuff like that.
But you know what... that was THEIR loss. These things ARE in place in this country, you just have to learn how to utilize them if you are being discrimnated against. So once again, I say Good for Spain that this passed. You won’t see that happening here without the President getting involved and condemning the lot.
Jud (moderator) said on July 5, 2005 05:55:
I don’t know how it was in Sweden 10 years ago, but surely not that open as now. Already when I was there in 99 it felt different than Spain, sure big cities are different, but a friend of mine who lives in a smaller town, and who is a teacher at high school - has dared to come out (some years ago) and marry (1 year ago). Her colleagues at work have no problem with it, parents neither. She organises stuff for this school, big events, exchange trips.. Sure the registered partnership law passed in 95 has helped to this. It’s just one step forward. And if not - at least I’d have the security that if something happens to me, Connie could be by my side at the hospital, she would get all I have.. or if she decides she doesn’t want to work for 1 year, she’d be able to be health insured with me.
Santi said on June 30, 2005 12:08:
Isn’t it nice? :)