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Explain the Riots in France?

32 replies

Oldag75 said on November 10, 2005 23:00:

I do not understand the situation in France with these riots. France has an extremely progressive, generous government welfare system to provide for its people, and strongly regulates commercial activities there to ensure that people are not over-worked, and that business folks don’t accrue the sort of obscene wealth we see in other nations.

I understand the prime movers are Muslim youth, going on their own sort of jihad. What have the French done, to cause this? They seem to have a superlative opportunity, now, to respond to this internal “terrorism” (that’s really what it is, wanton destruction of property belonging to innocent people) in the same fashion the rest of the world wanted the USA to respond to 9/11 – to accept the blame, apologize to those who are expressing their discontent with their system (there must be some fundamental unfairness in there, somewhere) and, in effect, surrender.... to offer these folks what they want, and appease them, and put a stop to their rioting. Isn’t this is a terrific chance for France to set an example for the world, regarding how to constructively deal with this sort of thing? France has set an example for other nations many, many times in the past. What will they do now?

ally77 said on :

I think it has something to do with the fact that the people involved have been pretty much treated like crap by the French, seperated from others because they are different...

coyboyusa said on :

its interesting how france has accomodated alot of ” muslim immigrants” and yet the are the primary instigators of the violence. The us warned both france and england about the growing presence of muslim extremists in their contries, neither chose to listen and now look whats going on. I’m not trying to be an alarmist, but when you hear the comments coming out of the mouths of people like the president of iran, a potential nuclear weapons manifaturer, and you look at the hostory of the last 2 world wars i can’t help but feel that something very bad is gonna happen in my life time

LittleSpooky said on :

Something along the lines of if you’re not French, get the F- out. Not to mention that if you ARE French... but decendant from those who emmigrated to France. I’ve not had a bad experience with French people, personally. Yet I hear stories of friends who’ve gone there on vacation, who speak French quite well, and they’re still treated like shit.

Sort that one out.

Oldag75 said on :

France’s post-WWII socialism has been a model of cooperative societal brotherhood, everyone equally prosperous, enjoying peace and tolerance and inclusion and diversity – it’s extremely difficult to understand how any citizen there could be discontented. They’ve obviously missed at least one factor, which has caused this Muslim upheaval there. I hope they’re taking action to figure out what mistake they’ve made, to motivate these riots.

And I sincerely hope they don’t play paintball in France. Such a horribly psuedo-violent, disgustingly aggressive game! Has French paintball somehow contributed to the problem there, with the Muslim youth ?

LittleSpooky said on :

France does have a paintball team, the Ton Tons. And no, Oldag, that didn’t have anything to do with the riots.

I play all the time and I don’t have the urge to go out and start a riot in the streets.

You disgust me Oldag, you really do. You make sweeping generalizations about stuff you obviously know nothing about.

Santi said on :

It’s very difficult to integrate into the society when you don’t have a job, and when you don’t get a job because your surname doesn’t match the requirements. So these people are forced to live in ghettos where the state accomodates them. The society they live in is not exactly the mainstream welfare and they turn back to the culture of their parents who inmigrated there. They need an identity and islamic people in Europe are a very close community that stick together and give them a very strong identity.
But they still want to live better (who doesn’t?), the ghettos are not paradise. Also some of these people (like in any other human group) don’t do well at school, so the “bravest” to show their disapproval with the government also use to be the ones who have less to lose, and the maddest.
Sum to that the very unfortunate adjective the minister used to qualify them and that’s just the sparkle they needed to inflamme the whole situation. Now violence escalates and it has become a revolt against that minister in particular. And it is going to be difficult to stop and calm down everyone.

PS. “Surnames that don’t match in job interviews” happen all accross Europe.

Santi said on :

I think in Europe laser games are more popular than paint. :P (and they’re expensive enough as to keep poors out...)

kachina008 said on :

The people rioting in France are NOT muslim terrorists/extremists.

they are simple, poor and unemployed youth that see a bleak future in front of them and no one doing anything about it. it is easy to sit in our comfortable chairs in the lovely house that we live in and judge these albeit misdirected young people. I don’t condone the violence, but I do understand the problem. I’ve heard people on the radio here in Holland saying things like “well I am not happy with my situation, so I set fire to my neighbour’s car. I don’t understand this”...well it is attitude like that which perpetuates the problems. France might seem like the model country, but I dont think anyone really knows the full extent of the problems that exist with the society. apparently the French politicians waffled around for days trying to find a solution for the problem, it seemed like they were totally caught with their pants down. Some responded by calling them “scum”. How does that help?!

Unfortunately this problem exists in every West European country, not to the same extent perhaps, but it’s there. the worst thing that the government can do is to ignore it. the west needs to come off its “colonial masters” attitude and stop ignoring the immigrants. just because they are muslim does not mean they are terrorists. Just because they are poor doesn’t mean they are animals.

On a side note, these riots are reminiscent of the LA riots and the treatment of the minorities are reminiscent of the peasants who were eventually involved in the French Revolution.

ally77 said on :

It’s wel known French are rude and ignorant esp the older generation!

kachina008 said on :

good to know they are the older generation then eh, ally? ;)

coyboyusa said on :

poor youth with no education...maybe i am mis informed but 12 yrs of primary school in france is free just as it is in the usa? i am so sick of hearing an education is not free ansd there are no jobs, you have to start on the bottom and work up not everyone starts out making 50 bucks an hour. it boils down to that france needs to ammend its immigration policies otherwise the trouble is just beginning

ally77 said on :

lol

Oldag75 said on :

“a bleak future in front of them and no one doing anything about it” That pretty much sums it up, the loser mentality that simply sits on its derriere waiting for someone else to upgrade their existence – and when that doesn’t happen, the discontent propagates violence. And the problem is, France’s economic system offers no incentives for anyone to get off his can, and attempt to improve himself. C’est la vie.

(And I was joking about paintball, testing a theory. SOMEone might be a little too SENSitive.)

rox-kuryliw said on :

umm interesting situation, i plan to phone my sister who lives there and ask her.
But like everything, its easy to blame one thing or one person. Its harder to sort out how the problem happened . i think alot it just mindless.

StillFar said on :

Oldag, I don’t assume you know the problems in France well enough to judge it as a loser mentality.

I do believe that politicians are mainly to blame for the situation. What is the point in permitting people to immigrate if you separate them from the natives and don’t provide equal opportunities?

kachina008 said on :

I always have trouble wondering if Oldag is seriuos or sarcastic in his/her posts.

Oldag75 said on :

Stillfar, that is an excellent observation/question, regarding the politicians, and I don’t know the answer. What sort of separation laws does France have in place for immigrants, and how do they enforce them? If their laws purposefully create a sub-class of people, then they will have to expect those people to stage an uprising at some point. I have heard that France has laws in place that intend to keep other “cultures” from tainting the French “culture.” Good luck with that, unless you want to build a giant wall around your country and prohibit radio/TV/internet etc.

StillFar said on :

As other people pointed out, it’s very difficult to get a decent job if your family name is from some eastern country, the same goes for housing in many areas. I’m not saying that the politicians are directly enforcing laws to separate them, but there is this split in society that they just let happen. All said, I don’t think it’s only a French problem...it exists in your country as much as in my country and in many other countries as well.
In Switzerland, for example, immigrants had to stay with a host family for 6months before finally getting permitted to stay indefinitely. That was a way to learn the language, getting to know the culture and somehow getting evaluated
...

Oldag75 said on :

Every economic system in history has been routinely botched up by interference from “politicians” of one type or another... be they kings, feudal lords, dictators and/or elected so-called representatives... champions of statism. People routinely demand separation of state and religion – but what we really need all over the world is separation of state and economics. If individuals are free to be productive, and are allowed to keep the fruits of their labor, their economies inevitably will yield abundance and general prosperity. And, it’s not a matter of natural resources such as iron, oil or gold; rather, it’s a matter of freedom from government interference (Hong Kong, before the offspring-of-unwed-parents Chinese communists took over, is a fine example of an economy that flourished without “natural resources”... other than individual entrepreneurial creativity.)

States and statists ostensibly promote “equality,” which is totally contrary to human nature... and always results in everyone living an equally shabby life. Fact is, we are not equal... except, in enlightened societies, under the law. Each human differs in intelligence, in initiative, in the ability to produce something that others can use and will consider valuable. The states/nations/societies that have had the most individual freedom to produce and prosper, have always had the most prosperous economies. Those with government-enforced “equality” have always foundered.

What we are seeing in France is the logical consequence of statism, of government-imposed limits upon a country’s economy. Second-generation immigrants in less-regulated economies have upgraded their lives, fulfilling their parents’ dreams... while the second-generation Muslims in France, unhappy with their government-limited circumstances, unhappy being on the dole, decided to riot.

Santi said on :

Oh well... that’s right, that’s why in the USA 40 million people have to save money to become poor...

LittleSpooky said on :

Santi: The number is that low? Damn... I figured it was well above 40 million....

MiracleMan said on :

Weren’t the riots originally a reaction to the gunning down of two muslim teens by the police? From there it seems to have exploded into an immigran/youth vs. government free-for-all.

A few articles explain: http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=newsukfs&tab...

Santi said on :

Well, MM you’re right, but you can’t explain all the fuss as a reaction for a single event... it has undoubtedly been building up for a long long time...

MiracleMan said on :

Oh, you’re exactly right, Santi. That was just the proverbial straw.

One of those BBC articles I posted deal with a timeline of French/muslim conflicts.

roxtexanet said on :

@Oldag: It’s not clear what you propose the French response should be. Evidently, the American model of “rain bombs on them for a couple of weeks” isn’t an option. Got anything else?

On a personal note, I really do have to ask... are you a reincarnation of Ayn Rand or just someone who’s read her books one too many times?

Oldag75 said on :

The French government’s response to their economic problems should be to get its massive derriere out of the way, and allow free-market capitalism full weal. State-imposed economic equality always results, yes, in equality – everyone living an equally shabby life.

Note to all of you wretched paupers from Cuba, Mexico and elsewhere, risking your lives to sneak into the USA to make money and support yourselves: PLEASE, PLEASE stop reading Ayn Rand’s rubbish. It’s making you not appreciate the economic equality you enjoy in your home nation.

DaminehGessle said on :

Actually this didn’t start as a muslim thing at all. I wonder why they are connecting it to the muslim youth in the first place now?! When it all started, it had nothing to do with muslim youth. It started because 2 poor kids died. Simple as that.

LittleSpooky said on :

D: Eventually, race will usually come into play.

Who ever made the “raining bombs comment”, just for a thought.... I wonder what would happen if the US started dropping bombs on its OWN citizens for riot control.

I notice we drop em on everyone else.......

Just a thought... I’ve got too much sugar happening here. *careens off several walls, sliding across the floor in my undies*

roxtexanet said on :

@Oldag: No, no... I meant, what in your opinion should be France’s response to the “terrorists” inside their borders? According to you, the rest of the world believes that the American response to 9/11 should have been to accept blame [insert other random nonsense here], which of course is the only alternative to blowing up people. You said this is a chance for France to show the world a better way. How?

By the way, I don’t agree with your opinion of the United States. It’s a wonderful country to live in. It’s the only one truly safe from an American invasion.

coyboyusa said on :

safe from an american invasion? right let alone the leaders of france during ww2 basically let hitler corn hole them and half of europe and yet somewhere along the way of america being one of the worlds biggest humaitarian aid contributors we are invaders and dictators? man you really are skewed and ignorant

kachina008 said on :

oh GOD why are we talking about WW2 *again* ???

Oldag75 said on :

The riots are dying down now – the French government has apparently decided to suspend its restrictions upon domestic business operations, heeding the “Liberty” component of the French traditional motto “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity!” The 35-hour work-week, which they realized was strangling employers along with domestic prosperity, has been suspended, enabling private-sector businesses to operate during whatever time-frame they wish, significantly increasing profits and propagating the need for French businesses to hire more employees... and most French companies have suddenly began vigorously recruiting from the young Muslim labor pool. I compliment the French government for getting out of the way of domestic business there, enabling proprietors, partnerships and corporations to get things going again, and churn up trade.... and supply numerous jobs for the former rioters, putting them to work in a productive fashion. And I compliment the young Muslims too – they obviously realized that it’s more beneficial to work for a living and get paid, than to burn cars for no compensation at all. It looks like everything in France is okay now, thank goodness.

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