The Daily Roxette discussions forum has been closed. The forum is only available as a read-only archive.
bull fight is bad :(
33 replies
LaMan said on August 1, 2005 19:29:
How is it possible ppl in Spain still accepts this brutal vanity in 2000‘s? It´s disgusting.
*angry* http://www.danheller.com/images/Europe/France/Provence/Bullfight/bullfig...
steven said on August 1, 2005 19:50:
I have never understood the Spainish’s fascination with killing these wonderful creatures. Most barbaric.
In a similar veign, the British slaughter foxes and proclaim it to be in the interests of our farmers.
It’s murder dressed as “sport”.
Simple as that.
Jud (moderator) said on August 1, 2005 21:16:
“I have never understood the Spainish’s fascination with killing these wonderful creatures. Most barbaric.”
>> I never understood it either.. I’m happy when a bull injures a torero *ole!*
Santi said on August 2, 2005 09:21:
“The reason blood sports involving animals hasn’t been abolished is because no government really gives a damn about animal welfare.”
Oh well, in democracy people vote, animals don’t. And sincerely, does anyone of you think of animal’s welfare when you eat a burger or a steak? Do you know the living conditions of the cows that provide you with milk and with meat? That is one miserable life in the stables. A cow for burgers is miserably killed electroshocked, after a miserable life eating miserable antibiotics in a miserable farm stable up to their legs with their own shit. On the other hand bulls for bullfighting are let alone running free for their whole lives, which amount to about 4 years, and then they’re put to the show to fight with bravery. Do not get me wrong, I don’t like bullfighting (and I know about this stuff because my uncle is “cowboy”), but for the sake of these “wonderful creatures” as someone has said before, does anybody think that Spain would keep a population of potentially life-threatening big animals if it was not for the purpose of the show? Do you think they’re mad down there? If it wasn’t for bullfighting there would not be any wild bulls, they would be extinct by now, these “wonderful creatures”... That have magnificent lives unlike the miserable pieces of meat they put between two slices of bread at McDonald’s...
Just give it a thought, there’s a lot of hyprocrisy in this stuff and the issue is a bit more complicated than a childish “bull fight is bad”.
I would like to remind you all that this kind of show is not exclusive to Spain, it also happens in places like Mexico, France, Colombia, Portugal... (In Portugal it is illegal to kill the bulls).
rox-kuryliw said on August 2, 2005 12:36:
to right it should be banned ! Killing for fun umm, fun for who?! you work it out , its a fucked up world we live in.
StillFar said on August 2, 2005 12:36:
you’re right Santi, the living conditions of those used for meat production are terrible. Veggies rule!
Nevertheless, it’s a sick ’sport’ and very dumb for that matter.
Oldag75 said on August 2, 2005 13:52:
Doesn’t multiculturalism demand that we understand, appreciate and champion the marvelous cultural diversities of the world? Bullfighting is merely a cultural practice. Doesn’t enlightened cultural diversity means tolerance for these differences, which strengthen human society as a whole? Folks who floss their teeth after every meal, or females wearing burkhas, or workers taking vacation the entire month of August each year, or families who keep their mud huts warm in winter by letting the dairy cows in, or societies that honor women by letting them walk six steps behind the man, or people who take a siesta after lunch each day, or the fellows who want to kill infidels, or the matadors who fight bulls – do not all these rich little differences between our various cultures make the world such a wonderful place? So come on, let’s show a little tolerance and inclusiveness out there, for cultural equality! Multiculturalism, like, RULES!
purplemedusa said on August 2, 2005 14:03:
Oldag VERY good points there, however I simply don’t chew well on the fact that “culture” is used to justify destruction (and YES i see killing as destruction)! Yes diversity should be celabrated & shared but it’s my wish to see the global community working towards a much more gentler race... and i believe this ain’t utopian but an achievable goal!
ncurran said on August 2, 2005 14:41:
I think Olddag was trying to be ironic again. Something tells me he isnt a big fan of multiculturalism. It gets quite boring listening to him after a while, especially as multiculturalism is irrelevant in this argument. Foxhunting was banned in the UK because the vast majority of British people were against it. It was nothing to do with people from other countries or cultures not accepting it. Hopefully the same will happen with bullfighting one day
Santi said on August 2, 2005 15:13:
To add a comment to Oldag’s post:
And what about that country in which you can get shot by knocking on the wrong door and it’s perfectly legal and the killer gets no punishment at all? (That’s culture, they tell us)
And that one which is the richest of the world but in which nearly 50 MILLION people (that’s more than the population of Spain, Poland, the whole of Scandinavia, the whole of the Balkans or nearly Italy...) struggle to survive each day because even working they don’t reach the poverty threshold?
Oh, wait, both are the same country...
Don’t be so ethnocentric, you’re so-called paradise is far from perfect... way far...
Oldag75 said on August 2, 2005 16:44:
To all of you who are bored by my posts: STOP reading them! Channel your tremendous powers into more constructive pursuits... such as working to prevent cruel practices like Spanish bull-fighting! Write a letter to the Spanish president, and demand that he put an end to bull fighting. He seems to be a sensitive, responsive individual.
And, we’ve also enjoyed the usual slobbering rant, fueled by virulent anti-America media bias, about how horrible is life in the USA... the richest nation, with the poorest people etc etc etc ad infinitum. If that makes anyone feel better while bulls continue to be slain (following picador dart torture) in Spain, well, have at it. Rant your heart out, while the bulls bleed.
ncurran said on August 2, 2005 16:56:
Olddag, i have no problem with you airing your views. The only thing that is extremely irritating is that you can never stay on the topic of a particular thread. If the only thing you want to discuss is america vs europe, then make a thread and discuss the topic with yourself. I’m sure it will make fascinating reading
Oldag75 said on August 2, 2005 17:12:
I said nothing about America/Europe in my original post. I commented upon cultural practices, of which bull-fighting is one (just ask a matador’s family if it’s NOT), and how multiculturalism dicates that all cultures are equal and all cultural practices must be tolerated. OTHERS then spoke of boredom and (by juvenilely transparent implication) the horrible USA. Meanwhile, bulls bleed and die.
ncurran said on August 2, 2005 17:52:
” said nothing about America/Europe in my original post.” Not directly no, but you were making an obvious dig as usual. Why couldnt you just post your opinion on bullfighting, without all the unnecessary undertones? Its quite pathetic actually
Oldag75 said on August 2, 2005 20:07:
Anyone who eats meat or fowl, or wears leather or fur, is engaging to some degree in the same animal cruelty as a Spanish bull fight. You’re simply being cruel to the animal by proxy. Is that close enough to the subject to not bore you, Nell ?
ncurran said on August 2, 2005 21:56:
Yes thats much better olddag, although i still disagree with you. I think theres a big difference between eating meat and killing animals for sport
Jud (moderator) said on August 3, 2005 06:09:
Santi: so you find it perfectly OK that those bulls live a nice life for 4 years to end up their life suffering for hours until they finally die? And what about the thing that the bull is either totally hungry (weak) or even in drugs (weaker) so the “brave” torero can do his work, do u think those coward would step in front of a bull if the animal would be 100% in conditions? Would be dead after 2 seconds!
It’s simply a disgusting game, cultural event or whatever they want to call it, I still don’t understand why the EU hasn’t forbidden the practise of this bestiality and brutality. I understand why no government in Spain dares to stop this, as our lovely Queen is a big fan of bullfighting. They won’t make the poor woman sad, will they? I have never understood what’s the fun with it, to sit there and see a bull bleed to death. As I said, I feel an inmense happiness when a torero is injured by a bull. They deserve it.
A while ago there was such a cultural tradition in Catalunya (not sure if other places too) to throw a dunkey or a sheep from the tower of a church down to the floor. Of course the animal died. Don’t ask me what was being celebrated with that, all I know is that now they still celebrate it, but they don’t use real animals but “toys”.
Regarding eating meat: this is the excuse/question pro-bullfighters come up with. It simply cannot be compared. We don’t eat meat for fun, we eat it because we cannot survive with plants only (or maybe we should convert whole Asia in a soja-production area, killing everything else). But since you asked: eggs I eat come from freely running chickens. Meat (mostly cow and chicken) come from the same chickens and cows wandering around freely in the Alps.
Oldag75 said on August 3, 2005 10:50:
The protein in pinto beans is a more than adequate substitute for meat. And Steven, thank you for your appraisal. You sound extremely cerebral. Please bless us with more of your observations.
Spain had the tolerance to legalize gay marriage.
Spain had the gallantry to honor the requests of political protestors who staged demonstrations on their trains.
Spain allows the torment of bulls, for entertainment.
Oh well, two out of three ain’t bad.
Santi said on August 3, 2005 15:02:
Did I ever said I like bulfighting? Because I thought I stated that I don’t like it. I dislike the cruelty involved on it. But on the other hand, when you spend 30 long minutes of your life under the threat of being killed by a bull, you stop having any sympathy for them, believe me. And that never happened to me in any festival or so, it happened on a road in North Madrid countryside. I am very proud to say that I have never taken part in any bull-related festivity, even having lived most of my life in smalltowns. Now Judith, knowing Spain as you do you gotta acknowledge that such a thing is quite an achievement, especially in a “bull lover” region like Valencia.
Besides the eggs/meat you mean is not the mass produced one and thus is more expensive. Some people just can’t afford eating like that. I’m happy that you’re rich enough for consuming biologically produced stuff, good for you. Don’t think however that this kind of production has no environmental impacts at all. Cows are well known for producing one of the most effective greenhouse gases in large quantities (And I’m not talking CO2 here, but methane) and if that’s not enough they need the forests to be cleared so that they can have pastures... Ever heard of Amazonia? It’s not just timber they want to get from there... This not only affects the balance of O2 and CO2 but has impacts in radiative balance, the water cycle and causes erosion of soils, especially in rainy places like the tropical zone. Now, a soil takes thousands of years to form and can be lost in several years... Maybe becoming veggies is one solution though... let’s remember that most people in this planet is vegetarian in some way since they can’t afford eating meat but in special occasions.
Sorry for the long post, I think I lost the argument line somwhere in between...
One question to think about: Is better the bullfighting or the extinction of bulls?
Santi said on August 3, 2005 15:09:
@Oldag: If everyone starts eating just pinto beans I can imagine that methane is going to have a higher impact on the greenhouse effect :) :D
Santi said on August 3, 2005 15:20:
A further remark. In Spain, bullfighting is not considered to be a sport. It’s more like a festival, some even call it an art and have a name for it: tauromaquia. “Tauro-” comes from the latin name for bull, dunno what “-maquia” may mean. Some people really get mystic about all this stuff.
Bullfighters normally have a higher profile than any sportsman/sportswoman, because normally they’re less boring than them too.
My opinion is that the bullfighting is so popular in Spain is that still this country of ours is extremely chauvinistic. There’s something about the “bravery” of the bullfighter (whatever you say about drugs or hunger on the bulls Judith, I would never place myself in front of a 500 kg monster that has 2 huge thorns in its head and very bad mood, it takes some reckless spirit to do that...), even the moment of the killing is likened to the sex act itself by these mystic bullfighting lovers... anyway, I think you can hardly see any woman bullfighting...
Jud (moderator) said on August 3, 2005 15:26:
women normally don’t need to show “how brave/macho we are” ;)
And the bull is in bad mood because it is hungry, feels bugged, disturbed, annoyed. Many animals get furious when they are angry, have been kept captive (when they are used to be free), or when they are afraid. See a wild horse. Bears. Their nature is NOT to attack just because. WE/THEY make them react like this.
Oldag75 said on August 3, 2005 16:00:
California offers a bloodless bull fight that includes female matadors. And, speaking of chauvinistic, the traditional Latino male psyche is steeped in such, the good old hot-blooded machismo image and so forth.
hahahaha No, I know other things about Spain.
hahaha
ncurran said on August 3, 2005 18:49:
Judith, where do you buy your meat from? I watched quite a shocking documentary on British TV about the conditions some of the animals are kept in. Do you buy all organic stuff? I would like to, but its so bloody expensive....and even the conditions on some of the organic farms are pretty terrible.
Jud (moderator) said on August 3, 2005 19:15:
yes, bio we call it here.. It’s a bit more expensive but what the hell. We also buy bio vegetables, they taste way better and should be healthier.. Oooh you should eat the freshly-in-the-morning picked strawberries they sell at the train/subway station *drooool*
I think one good thing about Austria is that this is taken quite seriously, I’m sure some of these farms aren’t that nice either.. but most of them. Even the meat from McDonalds is controled.
Sad enough, the standards are lower since Austria is in the EU, and specially the past years :(
It’s also sad that one has to pay these prices and consider it an “extra” to buy these products when some years ago this was normal.
But back to topic.. maybe we should start one about bio food :P
ncurran said on August 3, 2005 22:07:
Well maybe they shouldnt let 14 year old kids into slaughterhouses. Call me a selfish murderer, but i wouldnt give up meat for anyone. It is delicious!
Sure, I want the animals to be killed in a humane fashion as possible, and that why i was asking Judith about organic meat, because the documentary on TV i saw kind of concerned me when i saw the state of some of Britains farms. Especially the way poultry are kept, but also particularly disturbing was the conditions that many dairy cows are kept in....a good reason to buy organic milk.
However, that doesnt put me off eating meat, it just makes me angry that the government agencies that regulate these farms dont keep tighter controls on them.
Anyway, i think as Judith said this is going a little off-topic. Perhaps i will start topic on eating meat. I cant be bothered now.
Jud (moderator) said on August 4, 2005 05:31:
back to topic please, and without insults, if possible :)
And April, your comment won’t go for me, I assume, as I hate McDonalds *yuk*
purplemedusa said on August 1, 2005 19:34:
How is it that humans still insist on consuming flesh?