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The Pope
72 replies
Santi said on April 1, 2005 10:55:
Well, now it seems The Pope of Catholic Church is not going to last for long.
However I do not actually understand the attitude of most Catholics. Should not they be glad in some way because their Pope is reuniting God? What is the point in all the crying? He has lived for long enough, looks to me. Just let him rest in peace...
Actually he should have taken it easier in his last years, in my opinion. It just has been given a pathetic impression the last 3 or 4 years...
My purpose is not insulting anyone with this, I am sorry if someone finds my words mistaken.
Kama said on April 1, 2005 11:13:
Yes it seems that this is really serious what is going on with The Pope. Too bad, you’re right he should have been taking easy last years. But it seems to me that this is whole John Paul II, living his life til lthe end, making his mission as long as it’s possible and being with people all the time, no matter what. I just don’t like the big mess that media are doing about it. Lot’s of gosspis and stories, everybody has their own news etc. I don’t like it. I wish they gave some respect, at least in case of The Pope ,not to telling the stories just to sell more newspapers etc. Every occasion is good to earn money??
Here in Poland it’s wild, people are praying and every newspaper gives you news about situation in Vatican, there are some special news in TV, every hour or something.... Amazing, none of pop star would have such attention...
Santi said on April 1, 2005 11:15:
Don’t tell some people here, for them Per and Marie are not equal to the Pope, they are equal to God... ;)
blunek said on April 1, 2005 11:37:
Today the whole world is crying. Somebody who never heard and understood Pope‘s words will not understand this huge pain which is with us during last days. If JP2 is gone the world will change.
girl7twenty7 said on April 1, 2005 13:04:
blunek, you’re so right... The world will change and I doubt soon will be a pope compared to John Paul II.
ally77 said on April 1, 2005 13:56:
Give him 24 hours.... he’s old we all die sooner or later....
BTW, do you think the signed letter I have from him dated about 10 years ago will be worth ££££ when he does go.... ermmm thinking eBay!
LaMan said on April 1, 2005 18:34:
Why “the whole world” is crying today? Can someone explain this to me? He´s over 80!
Santi said on April 1, 2005 18:58:
Mari said on April 1, 2005 19:39:
The whole world don’t cry today. The pope is just a normal man, nothing more. In my opinion, the whole pope institution should put down. And hey, I don’t have anything against religious people. But religious adoring is always dangerous.
blunek said on April 1, 2005 21:06:
Thanx Girl7twenty7. And rest of you - you just don‘t understand. I hope one day you will... Todays sorrow is not about the age of Pope and death of every human being. It‘s about saying goodbye to a wonderful man, THE ONE AND ONLY. Not a Pope - A PERSON.
blunek said on April 1, 2005 21:11:
And one more thing. Ally77 - I think you‘re not about time thinking only about money. Just a little respect. Howgh!
ally77 said on April 1, 2005 21:31:
I do respect the pope.... he’s 84 years old, just cause he’s the pope does not mean he will live forever.... we’re all gotta die sometime!
When he’s dead type POPE in eBay and see everyone trying to make money from it.... if I’d had my way would have sold it ages ago! ;)
Bunio said on April 1, 2005 22:35:
I can’t believe what you are saying. It’s so pathetic.
Yes, he’s old and very ill but when such a great person is dying it’s hard to stop the tears.
John Paul II is one of the greatest person in world’s history. Read something about him. His countless pilgrimages all over the world, behaviour, sense of humor and many other things made him very special. for sure, the greatest pope ever.
He always wanted to be with people, to do his mission, so he couldn’t take it easier. That’s his nature.
Majdy said on April 2, 2005 03:32:
Why people cry of him? because the people loves him.
I will cry if Roxette got sick. It’s that wrong?
Mari said on April 2, 2005 06:09:
Pope greatest person? Hmm, what have he done? Did he make world peace, did he found cure against HIV? Oh, now I remember. He’s against gay, feminists, sexual relatioship outside of marriage, condoms, etc. Wow, he really is great! His church is also know as home for pedophiles, wow.
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 06:27:
Mari: i think the same. He’s as simple as you and me - he only has a little more power ;) and unfortunately he hasn’t used it properly.
I don’t have problems with beliefs, but I do with the organisated churchs, specially the catholic. And all of you who think non-believers are wrong.. it’s you who don’t understand. There’s just so little respect inside of you. Respect to others who don’t think the same as you.
Mari said on April 2, 2005 06:58:
Exactly Judith. Also I don’t have anything against belief or religious people. But I do have problems with organisated churchs...
ally77 said on April 2, 2005 07:10:
@ Bunio .... why what have I said other than he is 84 years old.... I also said he was a good man (perhaps not in all senses) but if your a big Catholic then your gonna get a tad upset over the head of your church dying..... but please try and remembe the man is 84 years old, no one lasts forever whether your the pope or not.... seems some people expect because of who is in he shuold live till he’s 300!
BTW, no one is asking you to stop crying, if it makes you feel better then do so, but don’t turn this topic around to make out like people are having a go.....
I was saddened to see him on the news last weekend, because his health is so bad, living the way he is living now is not life, the poor man will at my guess be glad when it’s all over...
Mari said on April 2, 2005 09:36:
blunek, ok, that’s your opinion and I respect it. But why you don’t respect our opinion? And hey, things I wrote are facts, so why you get so angry because of facts. Or do you mean that pope isn’t against gay or feminists?
Bunio said on April 2, 2005 10:03:
@ally77... I know that everyone will die sooner or later, same with pope.
Honestly I’m not that big catholic. I’m not against gay, sexual relatioship outside of marriage, condoms, etc. but I admire pope attitude.
I know it’s hard for you when you are not Catholic to admire person who is the head of other church.
blunek said on April 2, 2005 10:17:
I think there‘s no point to discuss with you here on TDR. You seem to be a very slow-witted person. You don‘t have to be Catholic and you can think what you want about Pope‘s opinion about gays and so on. All you need to understand this painful situation is a HEART which you don‘t have. You proved it very clearly. Things you said are really sad and pathetic to other people who think that JP2 is the greatest person in the world. We - who really cares about His health during these days - don‘t harm your feelings. You harm ours. Remind yourself - DO WHAT YOU WANT BUT HARM NOONE. You said I don‘t respect your opinion. And what the hell is your opinion about Pope? That he didn‘t find the cure about HIV??? Very mature thinking. My congratulations! Let me cite your words: “WOW!”
Mari said on April 2, 2005 10:41:
blunek, if you want to cry because of pope, then you cry. I haven’t say that is wrong to cry.. But Bunio wrote that pope is the greatest person on Earth and I’m curious to know why he is greatest. What have he done? What are his accomplishment?
Btw, blunek, calling me pathetical I so typical for you. For catholics there’s only one truth and one opinion. And that’s so sad.
blunek said on April 2, 2005 11:01:
I‘m going to tell you some news now. I‘m not a Catholic, I don‘t go to church. And I also think that gays, contraception, not-marriage-sex and so on are ok. I don‘t support Pope‘s words in these cases. And when I say you‘re pathetic I mean that it‘s really sad that people can show on this forum how heartless they are. If Pope is really not so wonderful person than how can you explain all these crying people around the world? People of all religions. JP2 has great abilities which noone ever had before and noone will have. He can listen to people, show that he cares, he can talk to everyone - kids, adults and old men. No matter what words Bunio uses here to tell you about JP2 - you will not understand. You just don‘t know the history of the wolrld. I hope TV in your country will show some documentary about Pope soon. I advise you to watch it.
ally77 said on April 2, 2005 11:21:
@ Bunio I DO ADMIRE THE POPE…. Does not matter what church he is head of, makes no difference to me….
@ blunek people can cry at what they want… the same kind of people that weeped for Princess Diana when she died… the time that like attention! Half the world weeped for her death which I found so OTT because no one gave a shit when she was alive, but as soon as It broke news she was dead…. It just amazes people at how sometimes people can be just two faced…
Mari said on April 2, 2005 11:25:
Oh dear god, how it’s so hard to understand what I wrote. I know who pope is. And of course is okey to cry if somebody is dying. But this is not the question. My question is, what are pope’s accomplishment? What have he done?
You wrote pope can listen people, show that he cares and he can talk. And THAT makes him greatest person on earth? Uh...Is he only person on Earth who can listen and who cares? My simply question is, what are pope’s accomplishment? So far no-one hasn’t answer...
I really don’t undestand why people always attack, if some one want’s to know more or has different opinion. Why people don’t see difference between opinions and people behind the opinions? Why opinions can’t fight, why people have to fight? You blunek said I’m pathetic, stupid, etc. I hope that helps you and you feel much better now.
ally77 said on April 2, 2005 11:29:
@ Mari.... it seems there will always be a few people out here at TDR who don’t respect others have opinions.... it’s a shame really because they tend to jump at you before they even read what is written... :S I understood what you wrote... :)
blunek said on April 2, 2005 11:45:
I‘m getting tired of this discussion, Mari.
Read my replies once again. I never said you are stupid. It‘s your words - maybe you feel like this???
Pope accomplishment? Spreading words of love and hope in this crazy world. And I didn‘t start writting here to tell everyone “hey, you have to cry!”. I replied because of your words - you could say all these things in more gently way. You didn‘t that‘s why I called it pathetic.
I wonder what Per and Marie thinks right now. Specially Marie...
Santi said on April 2, 2005 11:45:
——————-ABOUT THE SEX RELATED ISSUES———————-
I do not think the sex related issues are this man’s fault. Because the sex is the strength of the Catholic Church, it is their marketing. The cannot simply “change their point of view” on this because it is what produces new believers and thus all their riches.
They cannot preach in favour of practices that prevent them from getting new adepts, that is really bad marketing for such an organization. So condoms, abortion, homosexuality, they can not be good to the Church for a very simple economic reason.
And we have to understand that whatever the ways of the person in charge, he must move into the framework of the church, so do not expect any Pope to be extremely progressist in this aspect.
Besides, world is getting older in many parts, and I do think that Catholic Community as a whole, until 2050 or more won’t be ready for such a change. Church always goes slower because they must play over safe. God can not be wrong today and tomorrow right, they must wait for old believers to die out.
And what you said of pedofils, well, if priests were able to marry like the rest of men probably the organization would be much healthier. However I do not fully understand the reason why according the Catholics (not nowadays anyway, probably just because they keep on going slower in everything).
Santi said on April 2, 2005 11:53:
“Spreading words of love and hope in this crazy world.”
And looking at the news during the last year, would you say he has been successful in people getting the message?
Mari said on April 2, 2005 13:01:
Yep, you never said I’m stupid. You just wrote that: “You seem to be a very slow-witted person...You just don‘t know the history of the wolrld”.
Hmm, for some reason I see slow-witted and person who don’t know history same as a stupid.
You still don’t see my point.
coyboyusa said on April 2, 2005 14:16:
my issue is for a modern pope he still has managed to keep the church in the stone age. its still against contraception, it has fortified the prevalent idea in africa that aids /hiv is a disease that only homosexuals get, the rigidity of christianity has scared away alot of parishoners and the really frightening thing is, especially in europe , they are turning to islam, its very scary how easily brainwashed people can be
Kama said on April 2, 2005 14:23:
For us Poles JPII is one of the greatest people in the world, not only becouse we ’re catholics. He did a lot for our country, you all should know what was it, it’s too much to say now. Anyway in few words I can say him being a Pope helped us to be free again, he’s some kind of icon of our fight about our freedom and agains communism. Without Kaol Wojtyla as Pope ours father’s fight about free Poland would be diffrent and for sure harder.
What wanted to say is, that for us Poles he’s really special, not only becouse religion as I said. Maybe you all, who aren’t Poles cannot understand it, which is not suprising me and don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that this is bad. You all just don’t understand what we mean when we say that he is great! You cannot know it and probably cannot understand our feelings...
I will just say that I’m catholic but not fanatic, I still don”t agree with some catholics rules and opinions of the catholics church, also with some JP II opinions. But anyway for us Poles he’s at least hero and I know it can be hard to understand for some of you. So don’t be suprised when we cry ....
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 16:40:
the thing is that thousands of people die every day, people who are the same or even more worth than the pope and nobody gives a damn about them. Where are all these so called catholic who care for everybody and do share all their properties and everything they have with the poor and all? Why aren’t they all crying for every single soul that leaves Earth? For me he’s not more than a child in Ethiopia that dies because he has nothing to bring to his mouth or anybody who died or lost family/everything he/she had in Thailand or was killed in a robbery.
I don’t think he’s been that good either. He might have had a good start and with Polish people.. but ended up bringing the church and the presure on Catholic MANY years back in time. He has supported or not moved a finger to fight the mafia and many other injustices. He has only gathered properties and properties and has been swimming in wealth (a huge part of it stolen) while preaching “we have to help the poor”. He still considers women as inferior to men. He is against anything that means progress. He has supported the extremist “right wing” among the catholics: Opus Dei... the list goes on and on and
on...
Anyway, I feel sorry for the poor man, they are using him till the last minute.. they should simply let him die in peace. :S
girl7twenty7 said on April 2, 2005 17:40:
I’m not Catholic and not much religious person. But I have a profound respect for John Paul II. No doubt he’s an outstanding person. Of course one cannon share all opinions of his. Anyway he sincerly tried to make the world better in spite of his poor health. The Pope took a large step forward to contact with other religions, what never happenned before him, he traveled a lot. For us it all looks usual, but the most part of us is too young to remember previous popes. As Kama said, Karol Wojtyla did a lot for liberation from communism. This fact can understand in full (sorry) only those who lived in socialist countries...
(Here i’m with Santi) The Catholic church is very, very conservative, it has stable for hundreds of years traditions so it simply cannot change fast. However it did changed a lot during the last years, and i have to say these changes are grandiose if compare to the Ortodox church (which looks sometimes even more closed, very conservative and intolerent, esp Russian). To the question of aborts, contraception, gays... There’s not common attitude to this in the whole world, there are defenders and opponents. Personally i think it all is ok, i mean everyone is free to choose what one wants. Also the Church is too big and fundamental organisation for quick changes in traditions.
I agree with Judith in one thing: let him die in peace, it’s not very pleasing when everybody’s waiting when he’s gone and talking about him absolutely in the past tense and telling the plans for the future while he’s still alive (it’s mostly about media)...
Kama said on April 2, 2005 18:18:
@girl7twenty7
I agree 100%, I also agree with you and Judith about this media thing - believe me I don’t like it too, at all.
One thing is for sure, it’s not us who should judge him, time will judge his life and things he has done or hasn’t...
zaine said on April 2, 2005 18:40:
It will be a sad day when he dies. I am not a catholic, and to be honest I only recently found out even a little bit about this man. yet somehow, I feel the world will not be the same. No, I can’t tell you anything great this man has done as I have never been interested before. But this is a world event, and I feel that there are going to be many disputes following this day and many repurcussions.
I don’t think people will be over the top by mourning on his death, for many people he was a true leader and their spiritual father. If others do not carry these beliefs, then maybe he is ’just another man, the same as you or I’, yet if their own father was to die, surely they would mourn for him?
All I am trying to say is that as a race, we take the living for granted. At times it feels like I don’t give a toss about my family or friends, yet I am at a complete loss when I loose them.
I am not having a go at anyone here, or their opinons or beliefs, I am only trying to discuss my own ideas.
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 19:23:
I don’t want to offend or hurt anybody but I think the pope might be already dead (or at least much worse than what they tell) and the people around him are only making the grief of all worried people longer and are using his death and all this grief to show the world how many catholic are still left. I hope I am wrong though. Would be TOO sad.
He should have been left in peace long ago, anything else is simple cruelty. The last images of him were so disturbing, I would not even want my worst of the enemies to suffer like that :S
Kama said on April 2, 2005 19:36:
”...and are using his death and all this grief to show the world how many catholic are still left...”
These words...what can I say, it’s sad to read something like this, sad to know that there are people who think like this.... :-(
O.k, I respect your opinion about this and I don’t want to argue, maybe all this media show is not correct, I don’t like it too, but I don’t think it’s done to show how many catholics are left... I’m shocked... Yeah all catholics are evil and care only about their own things, even use JPII death to make some buisness :-(
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 19:45:
it is true that Catholic church has lost lots of members and that they are in some kind of “crisis” and that they need some good promotion. I didn’t say all catholic are bad. When I say “they” I mean the bishops and whoever else is running the vatican. If they would really care about him they would have left him alone long time ago, at least in the last month, not making him appear here and there.
I said I don’t like church organisations and that’s because they are only about power and more power, and power means money, and money means business. And business means more money and more power. It was, it is and will always be like that. Sad but true.
Some examples: the building of cathedrals centuries ago, Hitler and his relation to catholic church/how the vatican not only didn’t move a finger to help, they even dealt with him.
Santi said on April 2, 2005 19:58:
The Pope has died
Rest in Peace
Quod per sortem sternit fortem, mecum omnes plangite
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 20:02:
Bunio, your remark is so sad that you don’t even deserve a reply. I will quote Kama:
“These words...what can I say, it’s sad to read something like this, sad to know that there are people who think like this.... :-(“
It is sad that you even got that thought in your mind.
If you would have READ what people who don’t agree with you have posted you would understand nobody is happy for his death neither wished his death. Normal people simply don’t feel happy when somebody dies, don’t wish other to die. And I am among those people.
Let’s him rest in peace.
ally77 said on April 2, 2005 20:09:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399715.stm
Rest In Peace....
BTW, I know his age etc... but with his illness sounds like he died of renal failure which brought on the heart failure.... many people this age die of this....
Mari said on April 2, 2005 20:14:
People really can’t read. Well, it’s always sad when someone dies.
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 20:16:
Ally: do you know if BBC is not so much fond of the Catholic church?
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 20:22:
just wondering, the article doesn’t seem to be so “catholic friendly”
“Polish-born Karol Wojtyla became Pope in 1978, taking a conservative stand on issues like abortion and contraception.”
They have edited it but it said
”.. like abortion, contraception and women rights”
Santi said on April 2, 2005 20:25:
According to RAI Uno yesterday they found BBC very critic to the figure of the Pope as they were presenting the information yesterday. They stressed that, when going around the world saying how people were praying for him or so.
ally77 said on April 2, 2005 20:28:
Naughty BBC.... ITV News page ain’t even been updated yet..... talk about poor service!
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 20:38:
well for what I studied ages ago at school ;) the Anglican church separated from the Catholic church / vatican due to disagreements between Pope and King.. I guess some people still have that in their blood..
I have read some weird stuff at ElMundo.es (spanish newspaper) too. They had a blog by a guy who is supposed to be over there reporting.. and he wrote some kind of “intensive course” to be able to follow a conversation in a bar about who the next pope will be.. which I thought was plain stupid....
Santi said on April 2, 2005 20:49:
“Quod per sortem sternit fortem, mecum omnes plangite”
“since Fate strikes down the strong man, everybody weep with me”
It’s taken from “O Fortuna”, Carmina Burana, Carl Orff.
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 20:50:
In English please... :)
I guess you said something like Rest in peace, you will always be in our hearts
Bunio said on April 2, 2005 20:56:
ok judith, i don’t strength to argue with you now.
Just watch CNN now.
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 21:05:
watch cnn now? I go to sleep now..
what is so special about CNN? :S
lonely_girl said on April 2, 2005 21:10:
Mixed feelings right now... I’m catholic but not really a “believer”. It’s the only pope I know.
Let’s see what’s coming after him.
blunek said on April 2, 2005 21:13:
Even in this moment you have to fight here? Judith, try to understand Bunio. If you don‘t watch CNN, go to sleep and don‘t reply today anymore.
Jud (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 21:19:
What fight? I only wanted to know what is there to see on CNN, I watched the Austrian tv for a while anyway.
Will go to sleep in a moment, when I finish uploading some stuff to one of my sites. Can’t keep my eyes open anymore.
Niters. RIP and to all who are sad, my heart to you.
girl7twenty7 said on April 2, 2005 22:16:
Thank God he isn’t suffering anymore...
Rest in peace Karol
tevensso (moderator) said on April 2, 2005 23:33:
Closing this thread as we now know he’s dead, and you people can’t be friends even over a thing like this.
coyboyusa said on April 1, 2005 11:04:
be gone i say out out damn opressor