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The Little White Flag
83 replies
LittleSpooky said on September 7, 2004 06:30:
I’m probably gonna get shot. This MIGHT be archived, but I have to ask:
Doesn’t anyone here want a peaceful day, free from the literal bullshit of the world? Or is it just me?
For example, I’m hip, Ferdan puts up his posts. Unfortunately, it opens the door for others to take a collective dump on America / her government / and so on. Believe me when I say: I don’t trust them S.O.B.s any further than I can throw a 34,000 pound bus, but at the same time, enough is enough. Give it some time (and you have been, thank you).
Coyboy: You have to be one of the STUPIDEST people on the face of the earth. You post literal garbage and all I can think of is that you get off on all of the attention because you don’t seem to get it off line. I say that for the fact that you appear to open your mouth before engaging your brain. Your spelling is pathetic, your comments are retarded - bordering on EXTREME prejudice, and you do your damndest to piss off EVERYONE.
I’ve spent time overseas, in another country. I KNOW America is NOT a favoured country. But name me another country where you can speak your mind on just about anything, and still be walking free. You can’t do that in Russia, Iron Curtain or no. You can’t do that in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, China, Korea, Japan, etc. Sure, there are things that you can say here in the US that will get you arrested and tossed in jail, but for the most part, if I wanted to call my elected officials a bunch of “money grubbing, back stabbing, lying whores”, I can do it and still show up for work the next day. This isn’t in defense of America, it’s just a general comment.
The massacre that happened in Russia: That was beyond words to describe it. The same is said for the murders the IRA committed. But I sit back and listen to people that work with a friend of mine and I pause in wonder. CB works over at the LDS Church Office Building. It’s the main offices for the LDS Church. She works with a woman from Denmark, and over there, the population in several areas is predominantly Muslim. They’ve moved in, received assistance from the government (basically had jobs set up for them, housing, vehicles, etc), and have taken away from those who are FROM that country.
Is it true? Hell if I know, I’ve not been there. Same thing is being said here in the US. But you know what, most jobs that are being filled by Immigrants are jobs that most Americans REFUSE to do. So, hire the Mexicans, Vietnamese, etc. and pay them the lower wages, rather than an American and have to pay them almost twice the amount. Damn near makes sense. Is it right? Nope.
I didn’t vote for the Resident Prick in office. And this up-coming election scares the hell right out of me. Neither one of the canditates is the “lesser of the two evils”. However, if Bush gets re-elected, life as I know it will continue to decline and more men and women will die because of his “small dick syndrome”.
Long and shot, blew off steam, said a few things that needed to be said, but didn’t fit in a post that’s currently active.
Ferdan: I’m not gripin about any posts... half of them have made more sense on 0 sleep...
Ferdan said on September 7, 2004 07:54:
“Doesn’t anyone here want a peaceful day, free from the literal bullshit of the world? Or is it just me?”
Well, I do my share about that :P
http://www2.dailyroxette.com/smalltalk/thread.php/11379
but
Unfortunately, we´re living “tuffa tider”, and it´s not because our western society is under threat of evil foreigners,
It is because inside our own society there are “powerful” people who don’t work for the good of society anymore, but for their own personal good.
When that happens that kind of thinking gets spread as a virus to the rest of the population, and things like bipolarization happen.
Saddly we are living right in a inflection point, so it´s hard to ignore everything that´s happening right now, at least for me, what comes after this inflection point it´s hard to know but it´s going to impact history very much.
But anyway, it´s just a month left or so, Kerry’s gonna win and everything’s going back to “normality”, that means the same crap going on in the world... but without governments calling people “us or them”.
oh, and don´t be hard on coy, he´s just another victim of the preassures of society, just like all of us are in different degrees.
*Raises white flag* For how long? I dunno :))))
Ferdan said on September 7, 2004 08:01:
oh and ally if you´re talking about gender..., I also would love to see societies where women would take the lead. But oh well... I see condolezza rize or remember margaret tatcher talking and I dunno....
rox-kuryliw said on September 7, 2004 10:18:
I personally think any county that bans music artists from wearing army clothes in music videos or hushing them from expressing there views (US), or being able to have a gun in there school bag and people having them in shoe boxes in there house’s is not a country in the right mind. I Would never ever live in a place like that.
ps I think its time women took some responsability to wonder why they dont take charge . The women of the world are letting the ’gun happy men’ rule it.
They are alot more women in the world then men ?? It a mad world , who has the power PEOPLE DO ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Pps i loved margaret tatcher she could kick and MP’s butt hehe. I would like a women president in US ASAP its supost to be the free world, where men rule ?? NO i dont think so . ( sorry i do get carried away sometimes)
coyboyusa said on September 7, 2004 13:21:
finally a sensible post I would like to see on sept 11th which is coming up soon just a single day of armistice, no fighting no bloodshed no politicians on tv, just peopel together. And ferdan who do we have to blame for people of power being in power in the first place? only ourselves.
Coyboy: You have to be one of the STUPIDEST people on the face of the earth. You post literal garbage and all I can think of is that you get off on all of the attention because you don’t seem to get it off line. I say that for the fact that you appear to open your mouth before engaging your brain. Your spelling is pathetic, your comments are retarded - bordering on EXTREME prejudice, and you do your damndest to piss off EVERYONE.
>>> isn’t this a bit hypocritical coming from someone asking for the bs to stop. I am not an attention seeker i Have an opinion, something my freedom entitles me to have and just becuase it doesn;t align itself with the mainstream pc view of the world tuff thats life. I am entitled to my prejudices just as you are entitled to not like me. I don’t wish you ill will yet you seem to endorese alot of hatred so don’t back pedal, just make sure you vote this year :)
coyboyusa said on September 7, 2004 13:26:
and as for wonem ruling the world lol ferdan have you seen women fight they are some times more violent than men, granted they wouldn’t drop A bombs theys probably spray the enemy with aqua net lol
Roxer93 said on September 7, 2004 13:53:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the impression I get about American politics is that if one doesn’t have the money to fund a HUGE election campaign, one has little or no chance of becoming President.
It would seem that the wrong people have all the money!
eg. I don’t know anything about Arnold Schwarzenegger, but if he wasn’t rich and famous, would he ever have a chance at being a Governor?
I think it’s a real shame that a handful of these people have tarnished the reputation of the American people the world over.
Spooky, I think you’ve made some very valid points. I think the world would be a better place if more people like you were in charge.
ncurran said on September 7, 2004 14:52:
Little spooky, interesting post...i agree with most of what u said. Let me assure u if someone criticises american govt policies, it in no way means they are criticising the american people. I have quite a lot of american friends, and some of them are some of the nicest people i have met in my life.
I agree that maybe this is not the best place to discuss politics, i mean i really find it interesting, but at the same time the golden rule “no politics and religion” applies. I mean we are brought here by being fans of music, and when these kind of issues come into the fray it only creates disagreements and divides us. On the other hand, it is the internet and sometimes we are more open to discuss subjects we wouldnt discuss in normal social situations. I would normally never discuss politics or religion in a social situation unless i knew someone really well and knew where there stance was on certain issues.
What i really hate is when people start to mouth off about muslims, or any other bigoted predjudiced s***. We have a big muslim population in the UK. I know there are some deprived asian areas in england so i cant speak for the situation there, but what i can say is that in scotland there are also many asians and the majority are in the middle class income bracket.....they own their own businesses, property....it is some of the scots who scrounge off of welfare, not the asian immigrants..... We also have asylum seekers, which is a different thing altogether, they came into the country illegally, but now the government locks a lot of them up in detention centres which is barbaric from my point of view, they even have children in these prisons. They also are not ALLOWED to work, although most of them want to.
THis is despite a well documented fact that we have very low unemployment, birth rates are falling and we have an aging population which will be a crisis in years to come....we actually need more young workers to come into out country.....
anyway, i am going off into politics again, so i will stop. I dont see a problem in discussing these things, as long as everyone tries to put their opinions across in a non-confrontational and civil manner....maybe we can all learn from one another.
rox-kuryliw said on September 7, 2004 21:19:
To the above, i live in ’bradford’ with the largest population of muslims in england, ill tell you , they is still a hell of a lot of ’white english people’ loads more then muslims. It will always be like that.
In general im not racist as i love black people, and in sixth form one of my best mates was an asian girl, i didnt know tina turner was black till i was 15 , just cos i dont think about it. But ’muslims’ in bradford are just so scruffy (i dont know all) , the area of bradford they live in is so dirty and covered in litter and takeaways. (where the riots where a few years ago) They get new play grounds and plants planted near them new street lights, we have never had any of that near us, we had to raise our own money for a new play ground with a fair for the children.
I go to hostpital alot and thats placed in the middle of the muslims community and iv been shouted at and targetted cos im white with freckles and blond hair ! ! ! my sister doesnt go into bradford no more for the same reason as she is blond tall and freckles and has been harassed by asian men aswell. They have there wives covered up so you can only see there eyes, and the men wear jeans and te-shirts, its not a nice picture to see sexual equality is taken away in a town where you live. In fact it makes me so so sad. I dont want to live in a country where that is common practice, i dont care what religon people are , but when people quality of life is runined i have issues.
Plus WE ARE A SMALL Island , we can only hold a certain amount of people before we sink, we cant let everyone into the county who want to , we have to look after the people that live in this county first , we have a hell of lot of problems that need sorting out first ie povity still happens alot ect even in england. we cant aford to give jobs away to everyone over the world, it would be good if we could :-)))
coyboyusa said on September 7, 2004 21:36:
just goes to prove that racism knows no color. France is being overrun by muslims. Makes you wonder if that effects their foreign policies?
Regardless I haven’t been a fan of american political structure for some time. But, alot of peopel who become politicas are very well educated and experienced regardless of the fact that they are wealthy. Bill clinton, for example, is very well educated, alot of us were sad to see him leave as president. Granted, I as an average american citizen would never succeed at running for president, but in some ways the american form of government is structured that way, I mean who really wants someone like al sharpton or keanu reeves for president? Schwartenegger has been doing a good job so far as govenor of california, even thought he’s recieved alot of political opposition. He married into politics lest we forget. In america we too have a lopsided system were immigrants get breaks average american citizens will never see. This is why there is such a staunch stance against immigrant. DOn’t get me wrong we all know immigrant built this country. But its the quality of immigrants we get thats the problem, 20- 30 yrs ago it was hard working families looking to make a home for themselves, now its dead beats that are here to exploit our social systems. AMerican companies won;t spend money working to educate americans for what clinto as called the new information technology economy, instead they’d go to india and find women who will work for nothing, and educate them and send american jobs over seas. That’s wrong. Manufacturing is down, but then again americans were never notorized for our electronics, I mean if i Had the option to buy G$E or sony I’d buy sony in a heartbeat its simply a better product.
and as for america aging population yeah we’;re gonna be in a crisis sooner than we want to admit, but does that mean we shoudl hand out visas to any derelict who wants to come here. I don’t believe so. There comes a time when a country has to look after its own interests and we r dropping the ball
LittleSpooky said on September 7, 2004 22:09:
*tosses a cookie at Ferdan*
All I have time for until tonight :o)
rox-kuryliw said on September 8, 2004 00:19:
’coyboyusa’ dont know what you mean completely by the statment
’just goes to prove that racism knows no color. France is being overrun by muslims. Makes you wonder if that effects their foreign policies?
RoxHard said on September 8, 2004 03:10:
LittleSpooky: “Name me another country (besides America) where you can speak your mind on just about anything, and still be walking free. You can’t do that in Russia, Iron Curtain or no. You can’t do that in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, China, Korea, Japan, etc.”
Em... UK, Germany, Sweden, France, Spain, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Iceland, Belgium, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, et al...
I can’t stand this notion that America is in fact the only free country in the whole world. Part of it has to do with patriotism, part of it is simply down to ignorance. There are dozens of countries FREER than the US right now. Take Ireland, for example. In their last presidential election - they had a dozen condidates for the presidential election. In America right now, they only have 3 (republican; democratic; think the other one is independant). So TECHNICALLY, isn’t Ireland a freer nation than America right now? This isn’t a jibe, by the way - I’m just stating what was on my mind.
By the way. I actually praise you for what you said in your original post about Coyboyusa! It’s something I’ve been wanting to say for a long time but, for some reason, I could never get past ’you are sooo immature!’. I wonder why... ;-)
PS: You have free speech in Japan as well (it’s a democracy). Oh and you also have a democracy is South Korea (it’s North Korea that has that sad dictator and all the supposed WMDs). And, you talk about being open minded - so I’d also like to point out that we Brits have also killed Irish (so it’s not just the IRA).
ncurran said on September 8, 2004 04:51:
rox-kuryliw...i understand your take on things living in bradford. i have never been there, though ive heard about it. as i said earlier it is different in scotland, most asians are very well off and live in the posh suburbs.
Also u have to distinguish between 2 groups, most of the pakistani/indian immigrants came in the 50’s and 60’s, they have children who are 2nd generation, they have lived here all their lives and are just as british as I am. Sometimes its too easy to brand something as a race issue when really it is more a poverty issue due to severe deprivation. Just travel up to Glasgow and there are many areas you wouldnt dare venture into as an outsider unless you were willing to get your head kicked in.
Then you have the newer “Asylum seekers” who generally come from different countries in the middle east and africa. I am not saying we should let anybody and everybody in, but Ive read reports and seen documentarys on TV about some of the asylum seekers they sent to glasgow when they tried to spread them around the UK. They put them in big tower blocks in rough areas where scottish people refuse to live and give them some pocket money to live on. A lot of these people were qualified doctors, surgeons etc in their own countries, but the govt wont let them work. I think that is ridiculous.
Plus the comment about us being a small island, it is not true that we are over populated, that is just sensationalism from much of the right wing media who try to scare the people. in fact our population is falling....migration out of the country is higher than immigration into the UK. Also our working population is aging and birth rates are falling. We need some “young blood” coming into the country.
As for Coyboy USA “France being overrun by muslims”..... Yes, there are about 5% muslims, but they have always had a relatively high black muslim population because of migration from their former colonies in africa. They also have the highest jewish population in western europe. And it is also the most secular country in europe where religion does not affect govt policies, there is a complete separation of church and state.
ncurran said on September 8, 2004 04:53:
and roxhard, yes i also hate all this talk about american “freedom”, there are countless countries around the world which are just as free or freer than america. At least in europe you arent booed off stage or vilified by the media if you speak out against govt foreign policies, which has happened to many celebrities in america cos they dare to speak out against the war
Roxer93 said on September 8, 2004 04:56:
“France is being overrun by muslims.” Coy, why France of all places to mention? I mean, there are Muslims in many, many countries. And again, as I said earlier, it’s just that handful of ignorant people who give them all a bad name.
ally77 said on September 8, 2004 07:27:
>
You should move up North then, because up here the mess and trash is caused by the ignorant white people that live in my area....
Prime example, the house next door to my parents has been empty for 3 weeks, for over a week the housing association have spent money with the use of a skip clearning out the crap left behind by a white family.... a house I viewed two weeks ago, was vacated by a white family and left in an awful mess for the council to clear up.
Where I live asians keep there houses looking clean and smart, white people leave mess, a young couple who live on my close, bought there own new house 4 years ago you would think they would have a little pride, but no there garden is like an overun jungle, and in that mode they keep a dog and a rabbit in in...
In my opinion whites can be just as bad....
Jud (moderator) said on September 8, 2004 08:28:
didn’t have time to read the whole thing - but I must agree:
asking for “peace” here and at the same time call others (coy) stupid.. erh well this might lead to the same point: flames.
And got to agree with RoxHard, there are many countries out there where people can speak their minds without being boo-ed. You should read some Spanish media and you would see ;) Even in conservative Austria people is allowed to speak even against their own party :O I remember reading some actress and actor had problems to find a job after their comments against Bush politics (your own task to find their names out, not so difficult), or wait! what about some CDs from a band that were burnt for speaking their mind? and what about certain artist that showed a part of her body that according to some she shouldn’t have? ;)
I wonder what would have happened with cicciolina (spelling) :D:D:D
coyboyusa said on September 8, 2004 11:58:
thank you judith can we please archive this thread now please after learning that 1003 soldiers r now dead in iraq i am sick of seeing this
ncurran said on September 8, 2004 14:32:
ally, i agree with everything u said, u said it better...thats what i was trying to get across....deprived areas can be black or white and thats where the problems are. Race is irrelevant in that respect.
And coyboy, yes i read that on the news today. I do feel for all the families who have lost a loved one. That can be another misconception that because you dont support the war, you dont support the military. On the contrary, i really feel sorry for the men that go and put their lifes on the line who signed up for the army perhaps not realising the full implications of their actions. Its the politicians I blame, not them.
I hope the thread is not archived, i was enjoying the discussion. Lets not abuse each other....it is possible to have different opinions and have a civil discussion....i hope...
Jud (moderator) said on September 8, 2004 15:52:
the discussion will stay open as long as it doesn’t become a flame.. it didn’t start the best with the stupid calling.. but at least it didn’t go worse - so far ;)
Let’s hope we can have a constructive civil (??) discussion ONCE :P
PS: Even Coy has used . and , this time ;) Sorry :P
ally77 said on September 8, 2004 15:54:
Thanx Judith.... if people cannot hold a civil discussion, then they should not comment...
RoxHard said on September 8, 2004 19:01:
Judith: “what about some CDs from a band that were burnt for speaking their mind?”
Just to let you know - that was a group called ’The Dixie Chicks’. There was outrage in the US when they said they don’t agree with all of George Bush’s policies. There was also another case where a woman (don’t know her name - all I know is that she’s been around since the 80’s), she was performing in Las Vegas and she said something like “who thinks George Bush is the real danger?”. She was then booed off stage and escorted from the building. I think that’s just ridiculous. Aren’t they supposed to have free speech in America?
And Coyboy, I don’t think there is any legitimate reason for having this topic archived. If you don’t like what people are saying here about you (even though these things are in fact true) then I guess you’re either gonna have to change your ways - or ignore our opinions.
Jud (moderator) said on September 8, 2004 21:32:
roxhard: I knew the band, was being a bit sarcastic ;)
mardain said on September 8, 2004 21:38:
america its a country?
cos i live in canada (america) and i was living in mexico(america) and cuba (america) too....
you should nknow america is not the u.s
LittleSpooky said on September 8, 2004 22:02:
Clarification: The “Chixie Dicks” waited until they were OUT of the country before saying ANYTHING. Rather than having the “testicular fortitude” to say it while STILL in America, they waited until they started the European leg of their tour.
I see that as absolutely COWARDLY.
And, this was also at the time when 9-11 was still EXTREMELY FRESH in everyone’s minds (like around the 1 year anniversary or so). So, in my opinion, I see them as absolutely pointless in their activism.
mardain said on September 8, 2004 22:12:
OK, OK
WHITE FLAG,WHITE FLAG, PLEASE,
dont get angry please, as rox’s fans we dont have to figth each other!!!
Jud (moderator) said on September 8, 2004 22:20:
and the fact that they spoke against Bush when they were out of US automatically means that they deserve to be treated like that? You know what I first thought when I read about the burning of their cds reminded me of? KKK
RoxHard said on September 9, 2004 02:31:
Mardain: “america its a country? cos i live in canada (america) and i was living in mexico(america) and cuba (america) too.... you should know america is not the u.s”
4 Words: United States of America!
I see where you’re coming from (because the whole continant is classified as ’(North/South) America’. But do we really have to get into technicalities?
LittleSpooky said on September 9, 2004 03:24:
Jude: No, but let me ask you this:
If you were going to speak out against the leader(s) of your country, where do you think it would be MOST effective?
As for burning their CDs, I actually don’t care one way or the other on that. I don’t like MOST country, and their music sounds like a cat with its tail caught in the door (my opinion).
ncurran said on September 9, 2004 04:37:
Little Spooky, the band were not starting some big campaign against the american govt....they were on stage in london and made an offhand comment about how they were ashamed to come from the same state from george bush...at a time when the public in UK and Europe were up in arms about the prospect of an invasion of Iraq. It was very relevant at the time, they didnt do anything cowardly, they were merely giving their opinion on a topical issue....the way they were demonised by the media and members of the public was absolutely unbelieveable, that kind of thing would never happen in Europe. The politicians expect criticism. I can assure u if a british artist said Tony Blair was an a***hole at a concert in america, it would hardly even reach the media here, because we wouldnt care. I find this whole mentality that a lot of americans have that if u speak out against the president you are anti-american or unpatriotic unbelieveable.
Jud (moderator) said on September 9, 2004 05:36:
I agree with ncurran, it was just a comment in the right place and moment for them. And I think that burning culture/music/books etc is bad, whether you like or not what’s written or how it sounds like. I don’t really like country either, had enough with Garth B in his “international” times ;) but this doesn’t mean I am going to burn his CDs. Besides the meaning behind the burning was not “I don’t like their music, let’s burn it”, it was more like symbolic - I wonder how many had in mind “let’s burn THEM (= the girls).
Anybody remembers the Inquisition that went through (some countries) in Europe CENTURIES ago? The meaning behind it was “let’s burn anything that would allow the society to KNOW and to MOVE ON”. Similar thoughts behind?
One more thing: you gave us some kind of explanation or your point of view about these girls, saying that people reacted like this because they were cowards. What do you say about those actors who speak in their country?
rox-kuryliw said on September 9, 2004 09:37:
I think overall, its important to express yours feelings ie protests ect , but when you harm people and violant there rights in the process then that should stop. I sure everyone feel the same here you will all agree.
I remember reading about the eurythmincs videos being banned in the US cos the have a peace/army theme in there videos (its true) ? but christina Agulara can have simulated sex her videos ? somethings strange about that if you ask me. Someone is pulling the strings on whats happening there with abit of money involved.
PS i think when you go to live in another county you shoud not expect them to fit in with you , you should try and fit in whith the est culture
ie french going to live in england expecting everyone to speak french.
ie muslims coming to england and expecting everyone to speak there language and put up with them not speaking english.
Pps, I went to ikea yesterday and thought i was going to the toliet (it was a toliet a month ago) it has been turned into a prayer room ! ! i was so so shocked, i asked the women at the counstmer service and she said she has never even seem it used yet ! ! strange . like i said you dont to to another country and have everyone fit in with you. I would never dream of going to sweden with a language book or another country. Im sorry but thats how i feel . peace people :-))
coyboyusa said on September 9, 2004 10:25:
judith if you rember they burned cd’s by sinead o’connor all over the WORLD when she ripped up a pic of the poep on tv. It seems that throughout the world free speechis given out in increments. Don’t get me wrong I think peopel whose speech encites violence, AKA the kkk, nation of islam leaders etc, should be band from adresssing peoel on public lands. I mean do I really wanan see the KKK marching through downtown manhattan. Don’t get me wrong I knwo we are gauruanteed free speech under national laws in america but sometimes things go way too far. You have to remember too that what is condonned in some areas isn’t in others as well. Go from east coast to west coast in the usa and u see a vast difference in what is show on tv and played on the radios.
As for the dixie chicks, yes they did spout off while they were over in england to a mostly anti bush crowd, how they thought it would cause an uproar a mere few months after 911 is beyond me. Yes the backlash was out of control but the dixie chicks represent the ” south” a VERY patriotic region of the usa. I find it kinda curious that now the usa campagains r going fulll steam u don’t hear much from nataile of the dixie chicks, she was so hell bent on denouncing bush half a yr ago where is she now?
Jud (moderator) said on September 9, 2004 15:12:
uh? they put a praying room in Ikea?! for what religion?
I don’t know the DC so much.. I have enough with Melissa “Speak true” Etheridge :D
ncurran said on September 9, 2004 15:15:
@coyboy...a mere few months after 9/11.....they made those comments on stage in London in March, 2003.....18 months after 9/11. It was nothing to do with that. It was about the war in Iraq, they had been touring around europe and seen first hand the anger in these countries about bush’s actions and they made the comment that they were ashamed he came from texas.
I’ve been in Korea for the past 18 months and we get a lot of american TV here cos of the army being stationed here and i remember seeing an interview with the woman from the dixie chicks a few weeks after it happened....the interviewer was basically questioning her like she had committed murder or something and she ended up in tears....i hardly blame her for not being to vocal during the election. She probably realises she’s expected to keep her mouth shut in the land of the free.
Heres a couple of interesting links about the whole fiasco:
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story?id=5935803&rnd=1094742905969&has-...
http://www.tabloidcolumn.com/dixie-chicks.html
and they burned sinead o’conner CDs...i remember reading about how the catholic church were mad at her, but i didnt see any burning of CDs, at least not where i live, maybe the catholics did in america.
ally77 said on September 9, 2004 18:12:
@ rox-kuryliw, so what do you say to people who are born in this country? they have to speak ENGLISH and only ENGLISH, because you don’t like it any other way? how racist can you get...
I guess in your eyes this would apply to Chinese, Japanese etc.. who come to live here or study here they must speak ENGLISH and only ENGLISH, because people like YOU find it rude and they have to fit in. How about you learning to fit it? perhaps try and learn there language.
So when you go on holiday you can speak there language perfect can you. You can hold a conversation in Swedish with Marie....
You remind me of someone else I know... just remember half the muslins etc... your refering to have as much right as you do to live here!
ncurran said on September 9, 2004 18:53:
actually i dont think language is such an issue, i would say the vast majority of people who move into britain would pick up the language pretty quickly anyway. They would have to to get by and get a job, etc. I dont see why have politicians seem to make a big deal about, “they should have to learn english”. How many immigrants do you see walking about town trying to speak to locals in their own language? Of course you hear them talking to each other in their own language, but why shouldnt they? Actually the worst offenders for going abroad and expecting people to speak their language in europe is the british.
And as for the 2nd generation muslims who were born in the UK, they are just as british as anyone else. I have a pakistani muslim friend from Uni and she speaks with a much broader scottish accent than i do.
Of course language and culture are 2 different things. I think that anyone visiting or living in a foreign country should respect their host country’s culture. The same goes for me when i go abroad, i shouldnt expect everything to be like it is at home. That doesnt mean abandoning your own customs and culture, i think the concept of living in a multi-cultural society is great....i’m just saying that they should show respect for their culture, and we in turn should respect theirs. I’ve mentioned before i have been living in korea for the past eighteen months....a very different culture, very conservative and backwards in some respects compared to europe, but i have to respect the culture while i am here. that doesnt mean i abandon my attitudes and values, it just means sometimes i have to bite my tongue and do my best to act in a way that is respectful to the koreans.
ally77 said on September 9, 2004 20:37:
Well said ncurran, to me the UK is the worse for learning languages...
Jud (moderator) said on September 9, 2004 20:47:
well I do think that a person that MOVES to another country should at least TRY to learn the country’s language. Not talking about tourists of course.
How is the person supposed to integrate in the new city/society without speaking a word of the inhabitants language? work? go shopping? fill in some necessary forms? When I moved to Austria I surely didn’t expect people to talk to me in Spanish, didn’t expect to go to the supermarket and ask for ham in Spanish. It is not easy to learn a new language but I am aware I wouldn’t reach far without learning it, well yes, I could find a Spanish/Latin comunity and get in some kind of “ghetto”.. but I am here and I want to integrate here and not in some kind of “Spanish land in the middle of Austria”. I could have stayed in Spain for that. Learning a language is also learning about the country’s culture, and I think that’s important if you _want_ to integrate.
rox-kuryliw said on September 9, 2004 22:21:
” ally77 ” , thanks for being kind and not hurting anyones feelings in the progress of expressing your feelings you prove my point. Have you seen my surname ? do you honesty think my parents and family were from england ? HOW DARE you call someone a racist without knowing them at all it is EXTREMLY hurtful, but proves how silly you are to me. AS I KNOW IM NOT a racist, i would challage wanting to know facts why i am a racist, seems you can be tarnish with that brush so easliy nowadays every single post i put on here i can bet you answer not very nice towards me.
I stand by my guns, an spainish person would not be born in china and live there wanting everyone to speach spanish and complain when they dont, same goes for people being born in england and wanting to live here and expect to grow up and get a job if they cant speak english. I just your very rude and bad mannered ally, and you have really put me off coming on here again now.
ps My dad didnt speak english when he came into this counrty. But he wanted to live here so he ADOPTED THE COUNTY’s culture not expect to bring his culture here. Yes i do know muslims with a more yorkshire accent than me. But ALOT dont speak good english at all, and refuse to.
thankyou ”Judith” you have a good point thats how i feel.
enjoy eveyone, im sure we can someday live in harmony.
RoxHard said on September 10, 2004 00:55:
I totally respect Sinead O’Connor’s decision to rip up a picture of the pope. After all... he is merely just 1 man. Who seriously believes that he has a direct connection to ’god’? The blind admiration for this man is a bit ridiculous...
I think they should let the man retire. The poor bloke has had about a dozen health scares in the past decade. H’es 80/90-something, he can’t travel all over Europe anymore...
RoxHard said on September 10, 2004 01:03:
And I do believe that there is a certain need to accomidate other peoples’ religions in a certain country. Of course I don’t think it’s appropriate to set up a ’prayer service’ in a local shop, but if there are Protestants in England who don’t feel catholicism is right for them, they may have more of a chance to uncover more about Judaism or Hinduism or any other religion they might feel is right for them. Religious diversity in any 1 country isn’t nescessarily a bad thing. After all, some Americans could do with a little education as to what the Muslim religion actually means. God only knows how many American cowboys think being a Muslim means you like terrorism! I’m not saying that ALL Americans think like this, but you all have to admit - there are some who think this way... :-(
ally77 said on September 10, 2004 06:47:
@ rox-kuryliw..... Expression can someone hurt ones feelings, you not suppose to take it personal.... many post you have wrote yourself have not been nice to others, so perhaps now you know how it feels....
ncurran said on September 10, 2004 07:20:
rox–kuryliw, i dont think you are racist, maybe just a little misguided, and i mean that in the kindest way, not as an insult, and u are entitled to your opinions.
But have u honestly encountered an immigrant in the street, trying to talk to you in arabic or some other language? I’m not saying that all immigrants speak perfect english, but i still dont think language is the issue that people make it out to be. Discussing “immigrants” in general is very dangerous and misleading aswell, cos who do we actually include in that classification? Some people include every non-white person under this banner which is not fair at all. Lets not forget Britain encouraged immigration from pakistan and india in the 50’s and 60’s and we have many 2nd and now third generation asians who were born and grew up in british culture, and yet most still retain their own culture and religion. To me they are not immigrants, they are just as british as i am.
Apart from them, you have at least 3 other groups of immigrants. You have legal immigrants who are granted visas to come and work here, then you have the legal immigrants who come from the EU who dont need visas, and lastly you have the asylum seekers, who come into the country to claim asylum because they face torture or persecution in their countries.
THe whole system for asylum seekers in britain is completely f***ed up. The process is very slow, the vast majority of cases are rejected, but then most are also not deported for various reasons. there is an appeals process which takes forever, and also there is a long list of countries which as a matter of policy the UK does not deport people to because of their record of torture and human rights.
Some asylum seekers are locked up in detention centres, if it is thought there is a risk of them “disappearing” into society. Others are placed into deprived housing areas living among other asylum seekers, not being allowed to work, and not having any chance to integrate into society.
Often, its the kids who do integrate because they are allowed to go to the local school and pick up the language quickly.....only to face being deported a couple of years later....where is the fairness and logic in that?
The whole system needs an overhaul and it needs speeded up. If a case is rejected, then the deportation should be enacted quickly, what is the point in pro-longing the agony? And in the case of the countries that we cannot deport people to because of human rights, what is the logic in rejecting their case for asylum, yet policy not allowing us to deport them? People from these countries should automatically be granted asylum and be allowed to work and contribute to society. If they were given the chance to integrate with the general population, then maybe the language wouldnt be a problem anymore? And as i said in an earlier post britain NEEDs more children who can work and pay taxes in 20 years and many of these people have families.
rox-kuryliw said on September 10, 2004 08:57:
ally first , expression should never hurt anyone else no matter what , just becouse you i disagree with you, or you disagree whith me you should never label someone ! , I have never offended anyone here or anyone full stop. your just showing your wisdom is not there yet. I have experienced alot of problems in bradford, i remember town shutting down when the riots started a few years back, trying to get home in a taxi with four work friends being followed by 3 cars full of asian men hurling stuff and shouting abusive words it was not a nice experience. i know im not racist and im not misguided i have a right to my opinon sorry you disagree but you shouldnt call them names hurt there feelings ect just shows that maybe you dont believe in free speak. what happens if you dont agree with someone call them f**k head or hit them NO. You just have to accept everyone has different views but how dare you label someone a racist it you cant not base it on anything.
another things yes iv bumped into loads of asylum seekers and yes the dont speak english very well. I think its a problem that needs sorting , i think other country need to sponser other country to try and help them abit like pack up, we need to get to the root of the problem.
i go on the bus everyother day to hostpital and the bus drivers and mostly asian in that area, and when other asains get on the bus they hand shake and have a chat in another language and go and sit down without paying, its scary the amount of times iv seem that, then they is alittle old women trying to get on she pays ! !
Another one is my mum is a store manager and she has had to call the police twice in the last 3 years to report asain girls missing from work cos she was worried for there safty as they was gonna be sent back to pakstain by there parents to marry and they didnt want to. The first time when the police got to one of there houses she was locked in her bedroom ! ! ! , she is a lovely girl , my mum had given her more hours and now she lives at student accom in brad and confides alot in my mum. The other girl went missing ! ! !
maybe iv just had the misfortune of knowing alot of problems.
like i said before, i dont care what people do but harm no one.
ncurran said on September 10, 2004 09:28:
rox-kuryliw, i understand where you are coming from, and i certainly do think your opinions have been affected by living in an area where there are the worst racial tensions in the UK. But sometimes I think it is a mistake to brand something a race issue, i mean in bradford it is a race issue now because the society has become so polarised, but that is not really the root of the problem. There are many rough areas in any major city that many people wouldnt dare go into because of the thug/hooligan element, but noone brands these thugs as white hooligans. The issue is much deeper than race, it is a social problem. Maybe if there wasnt such inequality in british society then many of these problems would be eradicated. The gap between rich and poor has been getting bigger and bigger over the last 30 years ago, and those who thought a labour govt would reverse the trends set by their predessors were sadly mistaken.
And as for asylum seekers, i think i already adressed that in detail in my previous post, but all i will say that it is the british media/politicians and certain sections of the people that hinder their integration into society more than anyone else.
ally77 said on September 10, 2004 12:08:
@ rox kuryliw, I do believe in free speech, very much so, if it offends others in me saying what I am thinking then so be it, I have always been a person who puts ones gob in gear before I think, but I have no regrets to what I say. My apologies if I offended you in anyway, but when I read that post it was the conclusion I got.
This whole country (UK) is full of race issues, but what a lot of UK white people have got to remember, is that it is just not muslins or such like that always cause the trouble... white people cause there fair share in this country also. Take a look back at all the football hooligans over the years and count how many are white. I have never visited Bradford but we have our own area of Muslin people here, and I am sick and tired of hearing people complain, because they so called run the area, because they get things before others, such as pavements re done, or better lighting in the area… or money put into there streets to re-build the houses, and new front walls… so what? What does it matter, if it bothers people so much then perhaps they should move into the area to get the freebies as well. Housing is quite cheap down there (so to speak) My local corner shop has been run by a family of Asians for over 15 years, I remember the crap and abuse they took when they took over the “WHITE” corner shop, they still run it now and they are some of the nicest people you would ever wish to meet!
I live near Oldham so am aware of what the race riots can do, as I have friends who live there. Last week my town was full of praise of Amir Khan who won a Silver in Greece for boxing, I was so proud of a 17 year old achieving that, he rode around town last week on a open top bus and most of the community seem to pull together for him, but in my own head I was thinking and I wonder how many of those people are saying nasty things about him behind his back.
Where I last lived for over 20 years the last time the council spent money on the road in my old street was when I was 6 years old, for years I had to listen to people around me complain because the council would rather spend money in the muslin areas. God you should have heard the outrage when they turned the local vicarage into a mosque. I always find it can be the older generation who are racist, but I also come across a lot of people my own age who are racists.
In this day and age I will never understand why people cannot just live together and get on, I am beginning to think myself that being classed as a west person is not all the good, because I think we are just greedy, we want all we can see…
rox-kuryliw said on September 10, 2004 15:48:
well if you feel that then fine, You have it already in your head what people could be thinking about asian people in a nasty way, which i find very sad on your behalf. As i have never seen colour as an issue at all never ever i can say hand on heart. I have nothing against asain’s at all like i said i have some every good firends in the past who have been. I have a huge issue of people getting hurt . Yes they have got new street lighting /roads in the asian comunity area becouse they need to made it look better as its a dump FACT sorry but it is , ! ! ! .
By the way im not white, im eastern eurpean thank you very much for jumping to more conclusions yet again. i never call people black or white i think it rude, My personal opinon infact so dont attack me or call me a racist for feeling and thinking that, in fact i think maybe YOUR the one being racist thinking of ’white’ people like that. ie I dont think umm say the singer gabrielle is going to have an attitude cos she is black , i never think like that you do, never judge a person without knowing them thats what racisim is. I have never said all asian people are bad at all, i think you need to read and understand to whos opinon im giving it to, i can see where your coming from. I DO think its possable for every one to get along, as long as they is understanding and compassion involved.
rox-kuryliw said on September 10, 2004 15:50:
If you dare call me a racist , I WANT TO KNOW on what grounds ?
ally77 said on September 10, 2004 17:37:
@ rox kuryliw, obviously you did MISS my apologies… but if you want to drag this out, then I am happy to!
I quote….
>
>
Ermm on these grounds…
>
It has to be the MUSLINS that are scruffy… of course the white people cannot be held responsible for the litter and the mess!
They get new playgrounds? So are they not allowed them?
You get harassed for having blonde hair and freckles by asian people, so you can say a white person throughout your entire life has never called you for having blonde hair and freckles….
And the bit about the small island… it’s almost like your saying you do not want them here…. Like go away, half of them are born here and have more right to be here than you!
Sorry but to me YOUR post does sound racists, and someone else on this board has expressed to me it did as well, it fact it offended them, but unfortunately they have held back on there post!
And another quote from you…
>
So again you can say you have never once been on a bus and seen a white driver let a friend on free, because I know I have! About 6 times a week!
And just one more…
>
I never once said you where white... I don’t give a shit if you’re pink with yellow dots! And as for me being a racist… try telling that to my cousins from Jamaica!
And the thinking of white people in that way… No not quite, the fact that I was stood in front of a group of white men about 20 years old last weekend in which they did nothing but call Amir Khan every disgusting name they could think of… it’s not what I imagine it’s what I know.
I was working with a white guy not so long ago, that thought it was good to tell me his plans for one Friday evening to walk down a main road in Bolton smashing the windows of the muslins as a way of revenge for living in this country…
Which ever way you look it, MUSLINS, INDIANS, WHITES, EUROPEANS and JAMACANS, whichever nationality (and there are 1000’s) they may be, there is GOOD and BAD in everyone… No one is perfect....
coyboyusa said on September 10, 2004 17:47:
yes there is good n bad but in some societies there is a diproportionate amount of hate seekers and violent peopel. as for the dixie chicks if it really was nearly 18 months after 911 natalie maines should have really know better than to shot from the hip and not expect back lash. ANd judith and I agree part of integrating into a society is learning the language. ever immigrant who came to america during the huge puish of immigration in the 1900’s were able to assimilate into american culture WITHOUT losing thier ethnic identity. now adays they dont have to do much erhe at all driver liscenece testes are in like 20 languages HELLO all american street signs are in english. it just points out that now were getting a fairly lazy crop if immigrant who leech off social welfare systems and its not just the usa europe has a big immigration problem as well. Mass immigration and unimployment was what started all of the problems in germany least we forget
ncurran said on September 10, 2004 18:44:
coyboy, just a few posts up the page you were saying the comments by the dixie chicks “a few” months after 911 was insensitive, now you are saying it is insensitive and unwise 18 months after the attacks....let me say once more, the comments they made were nothing to do with 911, they were talking about george bush. Are you saying that noone in the public eye should be allowed to criticise the president, because that is all they did.
Unbelieveable....i’m sorry. When exactly can we criticise beloved bush, cos lets face it he is an incompetent a***hole
I think ive made my opinions quite clear on the immigration issue. But Coyboy pls remember that your country was built by immigrants, and i’m sure there are a lot of white americans “leeching” off welfare aswell, there certainly are a lot of white british people doing it.
I agree with everything ally said too, although i dont believe that rox-kuryliw is racist, although i dont agree with most of the things he has said.
I mean it is so easy to point out all the negatives of immigrants/asians in society, but almost every critcism could equally be applied to white people.
Immigrants scrounge off welfare? Well do 15 year old muslim girls get pregnant and expect the government to give them a house and money for the next 10 years without contributing anything to society? Don’t get me wrong, i believe we should support single mums...but what i am trying to get at is that all of these criticisms equally apply to british white people. And as ally and myself said, the majority of the muslim population in the UK were either born here or have lived here most of their lives.....they are british.
ally77 said on September 10, 2004 20:51:
@ ncurran
>
Thanks for someone that speaks a lot of sense, was beginning to think I had lost my mind, and I was speaking in space tongue!
Very good point about the 15 year old girls who get pregnant, this is the one thing that annoys me so much, and most of them don’t do it once, 12 months later they produce another, (usually by a different man!)
Muslins might have arranged marriages etc… but at least they have respect for each other!
coyboyusa said on September 10, 2004 21:19:
you know not to knock the famine in africa but i was watching a cnn special ther ewas this woman she weighed under 100 lbs she has 7!!! kids and had another on the the way! where the hell are peopels common sense
I am not saying there aren’t white americans welching off of welfare and yes I do believe I stated that i recognize immigrants built america but the degrre of immigrants we have now are simply bad. there are even peopel from the countrys that the new wave of immigrants are coming from that say these peopel r trouble lazy etc... its not just me
ally77 said on September 10, 2004 21:21:
Jesus, I just had a major wake up call to the real world... an old friend died today, so sudden and only young...
Feels like a wake up call....
coyboyusa said on September 10, 2004 21:22:
Muslins might have arranged marriages etc… but at least they have respect for each other!
when does setting your wives on fire beating them and blowing each other up constitute respect? ally sorry to hear about the loss
rox-kuryliw said on September 11, 2004 00:28:
boring :-O ally as you dont live in my city , you dont have a clue do what goes on ! Its all FACT do go see the reports if you feel your that clever to judge others ! i dont think people should be called nasty things on this site. Next your gonna attack me for being gay lol. Ps dont swear its not nice in fact its very agressive. you must have had bad experience to become so defensive in the past i feel for you.
I would like to know who this other person is who i upset so so much ? who i have upset by saying what ?
When quoting make sure you use the right words please ie I NEVER SAID ”It has to be the MUSLINS that are scruffy… of course the white people cannot be held responsible for the litter and the mess!” They worse area in bradford is the asain comunity fact highest crime/drugs/litter/prostitution (maningaham road) and alot is being done to improve things, again id like to know where you get your information form as you dont live in the city either that or your reading my post’s wrong , I dont think this is a good post no more
please explain what my quote us in relation to ie who i was anwsewring regarding the subject please cos if not its fair not to put the whole post. I still dont understand why im a racist to be honest at all ? I have a feeling you have a good imagination ally but you may not have . Maybe your just using bullish tactics, iv grown up with people like you all my life and im sure you would counter this by saying you know plenty like me. Well you dont know me and i dont know you. so im user to it if thats the case:-) i have no idea what happens or the quality of comunity in your area.
I find it scary your still calling me a racist when in the last local elections i voted for a muslim person, or should i say a women of asian oragin in my area. No im not enjoying this post no more.
ally77 said on September 11, 2004 00:58:
Forget it, you ain’t worth my time or energy.. I have more important things to do...
perhaps one of the mods would like to close this topic....
LittleSpooky said on September 11, 2004 03:34:
Ally: I thought I had a bad hair day. Sorry to hear about your loss :o(
Rox: No one said you had to “enjoy” the post. I’ve been following EVERYONE’s comments right down the line, and I’ve learned a lot. I’m sorry you don’t like it any longer. Skip the post from now on.
ncurran said on September 11, 2004 04:23:
@ally, very sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.
and roxkuryil, i think this whole racist thing has got out of hand. I dont think you are racist, I have said that, and Ally has apoligised for what she said. And why bring homophobia into it? I am pretty sure that Ally is not homophobic from what she wrote in another topic, and I for one am definitely not going to attack you for being gay when I am a gay man myself.
Everyone, can we just call a truce? as little spooky said, we were having an interesting discussion before all this came up, it would be good if it could continue without all the namecalling
And a final word for Coyboy.....u need some education on how muslims live “setting your wive on fire, beating them up and blowing each other up”.
Coyboy why do you insist on stereotyping everybody? Don’t you know that the stereotype of americans is that they are loud, arrogant and stupid? I know all americans arent like that, so why cant u accept that muslims dont fit into your stereotype.
ncurran said on September 11, 2004 06:27:
and one more thing coyboy, can you please explain this comment from the previous page, i have no idea what you are talking about.
“you know not to knock the famine in africa but i was watching a cnn special ther ewas this woman she weighed under 100 lbs she has 7!!! kids and had another on the the way! where the hell are peopels common sense”
ally77 said on September 11, 2004 07:29:
Thanx guys for your comments, I have not slept at wink last night thinking of that poor life that has been lost..... His sister’s car has been here all night along with his fathers, such a tragic accident and it can change your whole prospective on life....
@ rox kurliw….I somehow doubt I would be homophobic when I am Bi myself, do you? But then again I feel I do not have to explain myself to you anyway….
Jud (moderator) said on September 11, 2004 08:43:
no need to close the topic.. so far we kinda keep within the limits ;) maybe some _post_ deleting will be necessary, let me go and have breakfast first :)
I agree with Coyboy that in some islamic countries they must have a very very different concept of “respect”. In here, I cannot agree with the fact of forcing women to cover their face or not allowing them to make gymnastics or maths, among other things - i don’t agree with the fact that our (occidental) society is kinda forcing women to wear tonz of make up and get skinny either and in occasions go through beauty (for the moment, but it all gets worse after some years - YUK!) OPs, it’s more or less the same kind of thing for me, at least we can study what we feel like, anyway, no one is free of sin ;)
so.. they may respect eachother but lately I have (sadly) had to live occasions where I have seen they do not respect people who is NOT like them. I would write a hell of a story but.. I guess I will be missunderstood and you really have to have lived it to understand, I guess..
rox-kuryliw said on September 11, 2004 09:35:
Well said Judith :-)) that is my whole point really. But at least the women not in that country have a choice in a way if you know what i mean.
rox-kuryliw said on September 11, 2004 09:40:
and ally of course you dont have to explain yourself in anyway to anyone, but i just think its so unfair to label someone. everyone has the right to there opinons , agree to disagree.
so you dont like being called homophobic well i dont like being called a racist imagine how i feel aswell.
ally77 said on September 11, 2004 10:28:
Who called me homophobic, I don’t recall that... because this is a forum, I am a little more grown up to be worried about what someone might want to call me....
LittleSpooky said on September 11, 2004 10:52:
Jude: What’s for breakfast?
*Spooky’s up at an odd hour for Saturday*
LittleSpooky said on September 13, 2004 00:08:
Just cuz I want this to be on top again *lol* NOT.
I have to admit, this is one of the most civilized discussions I’ve participated in a LONG time here. Is this a sign of things to come?
If so
I’M TELLING MY MOMMY THAT YOU WON’T PLAY WITH ME NO MORE!!!!
Sorry... Lack of whatever. Take your pick:
Sleep
Food
Sex
Entertainment
Life
Heart
Soul
Brains....
yadda yadda yadda
ally77 said on September 13, 2004 20:12:
We need to bring some life back into this topic it was just getting good, but my bait ran away! :)
ncurran said on September 14, 2004 19:08:
ok then lets try and breathe some life back into this. I kind of agree with Judith...I dont particularly like some of the laws and culture in islamic countries. There are many examples, but public bedheadings, cutting off peoples hands for theft, the death penalty or imprisonment for homosexuality....the list is endless. However, I am not muslim and i dont live in Saudi Arabia or a similar islamic state. This is a different issue altogether than muslims actually living in our countries. While I think its a good thing that groups like amnesty international campaign for human rights around the world, sometimes i think the west expect too much from these countries....i feel dreadfully sorry for anyone who is oppressed under such regimes, but i believe that countries must develop at there own speed...things will change. Some of these countries have completely different value systems from us, and when you go and forcfully enforce a western style democracy on them, we have seen the results in countries like iraq and afganistan. THe latest estimates are that america will have to keep its troops in iraq for the next 20 years to maintain stability, though i am sure that is not something Bush will publicise on his election trail.
Its easy to forget that homosexuality was still pretty much frowned upon in countries like the UK as little as 20 years ago, and there is STILL not full equality. Also it was only about a hundred years ago that women didnt have the vote.
Lets also not forget that countrys like S.Korea and Spain were led by dictators until the late 80’s. My point is, we have to allow countries to develop at their own speed sometimes, even if they dont measure up to our western values.
Jud (moderator) said on September 14, 2004 20:52:
erh.. Spain stopped having a dictator in 75, when Franco died. (if you don’t count the shadow of a dictator between 2000 and this year...)
Regarding homosexuality: i think that if we would let some single politicians decide homosexuality would go back to being punished with prison in some countries. Ever heard of Austria’s kanzler? *sigh*
Here in Austria the age of consent for male-to-male sexual relations was higher (18) than male-to-woman or woman-to-woman (14) until they changed the law in 2002. The so called article 209.
ncurran said on September 15, 2004 04:03:
ah ok Judith, i was getting confused...i was thinking of s.korea which was a dictatorship until 87, i thought it was the 80’s for spain aswell, but u know much better than me being spanish...
As for homosexuality, yes it was the same in the UK until a few years ago with the age of consent, now it is 16 for everyone. Thats what i mean though, such progress is already pretty slow in some modern democracies...change does happen but very slowly. Giving s.korea as an example, it advanced very quickly since the korean war technologically, but social attitudes are still probably on a par with those in Europe 30 years ago, things are changing though, i can see it. The reason things change so slowly is that attitudes tend to develop slowly with every new generation that comes, so you have to wait for the next generation of youngsters for there to be a huge shift in opinion.
roxtexanet said on September 15, 2004 16:04:
@LaMan: Can you not imagine in any way how your comments might be offensive to this BB’s users? Just think about it a little, it will come to you.
Jud (moderator) said on September 15, 2004 16:27:
this is certainly not the place for racist comments that could end up in a flame. Ever heard white flag = peace?
We are doing fine - discussing as adults, find another web to insult people. Thanks ;)
LittleSpooky said on September 19, 2004 02:28:
Watercolours: Outside of stating the obvious, why do you say that? That is, if I may ask. Is there something in your life that has got you in this opinion? Most of us already think so, what with the war and what not.
ally77 said on September 19, 2004 06:37:
We WERE just stating the obvious!!! it was the drink talking... :)
ally77 said on September 7, 2004 07:49:
In this f***ed up world there will never be peace, not where there is men.... :(