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School massacre in russia.
60 replies
Roxette-atic said on September 3, 2004 20:58:
I hate the world today.
Anarem said on September 4, 2004 20:06:
Not just abducting them– torturing them by denying them food and water, and shooting at them as they flee. “Coward” isn’t a strong enough word for them– they’re monsters, pure and simple.
Majdy said on September 5, 2004 13:31:
i never agree with death sentence... but for those terrorist... I wish I could kill them myself :(
Strest said on September 5, 2004 16:32:
Monsters? Yeah, but let’s not forget that Russia created those monsters...
Anarem said on September 5, 2004 16:46:
If a group wants independence, why not do it peacefully? Why resort to kidnapping and killing children? India did not achieve independence from Great Britain through violent means– they did not kill or torture children. To lay all the blame on Russia for a faction’s evil actions is just passing the buck.
Strest said on September 5, 2004 22:36:
First of all, I’m not trying to justify their deeds!
Anarem: The problem is that Putin will never let them have their independence (partly due to their oilresources). Heck, he even said he’d strike harder against Chechnya when he won the last election.
They (the Chechenyan rebels) probably feel that if Russia brings terror upon them, they shall bring terror upon Russia.
If someone kills your spouse, it’s not that farfetched you’d want revenge. Obviously, most normal people wouldn’t kill the one responsible for the deed.
But if you’ve been living in a warzone year after year I don’t really think you’d care that much if you’re killing children or adults (if it’s part of your daily life you’ll get used to it).
I think Russia should grant them their independence. And then Chechnya should be given help from the outside world to rebuild their country so it won’t be like the last time Russia withdrew their troops (the country was in ruins and was run by lawless gangs).
I feel sorry for every civilian getting killed (and troops too of course), but it saddens me when the newspapers only focus on when it’s Russians getting killed when so many more civilians in Chechnya have been killed by Russian troops then vice versa.
I guess it’s easier getting away with it when you claim it’s Counter Terrorists Op’s.
Here’s a good read:
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/
HRW is the Human Rights Watch
zeeshan said on September 6, 2004 01:23:
A lot of people either don’t know or have forgotten how many women/children and youth were killed in Chechnia. I saw two video clips. In one of the video clips, russian soldiers decapitated a man with a knife. The man was tied up with his hands behind and was on the ground, the soldier put his foot on his head and the other slowly started to cut his neck and then he decapitated it and held the head in his hands by grabbing his hair.
In another video clip the russian soliders were chasing a man in the market and they cut the man bit by bit by using knives. You could see flesh ripping from his arms and back and falling down on the ground... when the man couldn’t take it anymore, he fell on the ground and they literally bouchered the guy IN THE MARKET!!!!!!
What happened in Russia is a brutal act of terrorism and I must say that no matter what the cause is, no one gives anyone ANY right to kill innocent people who have NOTHING to do with the war. If anyone wants to fight, they shud go and fight with the millitary for that matter. LET THE CIVILANS PEOPLE LIVE PEACEFULLY!!!!!!!!!!! But violence attract violence. You can’t clap with one hand. This is the thing all of us seem to be missing. Have you also forgotten the Russian invasion on Afghanistan? The biggeest cause of USSR’s doom?
Oh and Anarem, yes Hindu indians didn’t die but when Pakistan was liberated, 2.2million muslims were killed by extremist hindus and sikhs, thousands of children were killed (even the unborn ones) and thousands and thousands of girls were raped. Some girls commited suicides when the mobs attacked the muslims. Trains with body parts came to Pakistan rather than any living person. I am not trying to be racial or religious. Just putting some facts on the board and oh recently 2,500 Muslims were either burnt alive or murdered in the state of Gujrat.
Humans are worse than Animals. Hell animals kill for survival and food, we kill for satisfaction and politics. HOW VERY LAME (somehow the word lame doesn’t justify enough)
Z
Majdy said on September 6, 2004 03:19:
still very sad for the kids. this the saddest news of the year...
no matter what their reason, it’s wrong to kill the children like that...
Anarem said on September 6, 2004 12:04:
I’m not defending the Russsians, I’m not defending anybody– we’re all barbarians when it comes right down to it. Am I proud that Canadian “peacekeepers” kidnapped, tortured and murdered a Somali teenager not too long ago, and that I fear that the same thing will happen in Afghanistan? No, I’m not proud of it.
Every country, every people has their own dirty laundry. Especially the Russians and the Americans. I know that. But the practice of torturing children, on any side, is just wrong. It’s sickening.
zeeshan said on September 6, 2004 12:14:
Coy: Lol u are no doubt a disgrace to human kind (just like those so-called muslims are)
Z
ncurran said on September 6, 2004 13:24:
well its good to see we have the voice of redneck america represented on smalltalk. Coyboy, let me tell you, you shouldnt believe everything fox news tells you....u have the most biased media in the world.
There are over a billion muslims worldwide, the majority of them peaceloving. The terrorists did a sickening act, but ultimately what they want is an independant Chechnya. Just like when the IRA killed thousands of British people they were demanding a united ireland. And if u didnt know already, most of the IRA fundraising was done in the US. Some of the same people who have condemned muslim terrorists since 9/11 3 years ago are the very people who donated millions to finance the killing of innocent civilians in the british isles.
The world is not a very happy place at the moment, but maybe if that idiot bush had the brains to realise the only way that any form of violence or terror can be defeated is to look at the root cause of these actions, and tackle that.......
His actions over the past couple of years have only created a more active breeding ground for terrorists. The resentment towards america and its allies has grown all over the world, and this makes it much easier for terrorist groups to recruit young men into their cause.
Some americans need to realise that their govts actions affect the rest of the world and their country is not the only place in the world that it worth anything.
Roxette-atic said on September 6, 2004 15:09:
well said lawyer ! Or like Roxette said ” Do what you want but harm noone” . Thats something for everyone to think about, whatever the religion is.
dmitryjm said on September 6, 2004 20:12:
zeeshan and others, I live in Russia and I want to say - You wrong.
If you could see how all these “refugees” from Chechnya really live in Russia - you never said that.
“Refugees” have a good houses, expensive cars, and a lot of money. They hate Russians, they kill our peaple, they robbery our flats, they “buying” our girls.
Most our casino, bars, restaurants, shops, and company belong to “refugees” from Chechnya.
Trust me, they live not so bad as you can hear from your news. I live here - and I saw it.
All video clips that you saw - forgery. It was pictured by terrorist to show all of the world - that russians are bad people. “Russian soldier” from the tape - is a terrorist but in uniform like our soldier. And he killed simple moslem from neighbor republic (Ingushetiya).
I want to say all of you, if you want to understand us - you need to come here and see it. You need to live here for a months. And then your mean about Russia and Russians peaple will change.
DO NOT HEAR your news about us. They lie you.
If you want to know real news from Russia - check it http://www.rbcnews.com/
P.S. sorry for my English
ncurran said on September 7, 2004 04:01:
dmitry, i respect your opinion, and i dont want to offend u but, i feel that your opinion is biased living in russia. whatever u may think much of the worlds media is much less biased than you would think. Yes, every media is biased to an extent....but i would recommend one thing. before you make your own judgement on any world situation, you should look at at least 3 or 4 different news sources. And i dont mean 3 or 4 russian newspapers or TV stations...i mean different kinds of media from around the world.
You say that chechen refugees live like kings in russia. i find that hard to believe, but even if it is true......why are there chechen refugees in the first place....because there country is in a mess with poverty and unemployment. And the tanks that we see running through the streets do belong to the russians. Whenever russia declares another crackdown on a rebellion, the world is deeply suspicious.....because according to the chechens this just means killing men and raping women.
I don’t pretend to be an expert on the whole situation, but u seem to suggest that russia is blameless in the situation there, and i dont accept that for one minute. Your country has come a long way since the 80’s but it still has a long way to go until it becomes a modern democracy. If a majority chechens want independence....russia should give it to them, along with free and fair elections....it was obvious the elections that were held at the end of august were a farce.
dmitryjm said on September 7, 2004 07:49:
ncurran, I agree with you about media.
Of course not all of the chechen refugees live in Russia like a king. A lot of peaple in Russia live poor, some of them are refugees. But who give them rights to terrorize our country?
They select to attack school in Alaniya (Severnaya Osetiya {North Osetiya}). Why? Becouse they are caucasians too but they are not moslems.
We can’t to stop it, we can’t destroy them besouse we are by the influense of other European countries.
You need to understand that Russia and USSR is not the same country. I remember the time when I live in USSR - it was terribly.
Now we live much better. Russia is independent country.
RUSSIA IS NOT USSR!!!
A lot of you ask why we can’t to give independent to Ichkeriya (Chechnya)? Imagine if one of the part of your country will star to ask you about independent and nothing to give you (country). Imagine if one of the part of your country will star to kill another peaple. What do you start to do?
Yes, in Checnya we have a good oil. But the USA seize the Iraq, besouse they need oil too. But they star the war, however we protect our wholeness
AntiMario said on September 7, 2004 12:45:
Well, guys talking about that “chechen conflict” brought you over different points of view. I cannot support all the sides here, but being Russian for more than 25 years I can judge a little the things happehhing to my country, eh?
I cannot confirm that chechens and other people from that region used to live like kings here, but now and mostly in the big cities they usually take some serious and “profitable” places in the society. This is, however, mostly related to commerce and owning the shared capitals of not so small companies.
From my point of view there are too much of them everywhere! And they behave like we owe them something, like we’re kinda slaves on our territory. Isn’t that something strange in the blood? They always say - during all the history of mankind chechens had the the war with Georgia, stabbing one clan off after another, generation in generation. What can they do then except being cruel? I haven’t seen though the claims on how they treat Russsians at their territory? Oh, you must have never seen that, or? (suggested seing great movie called “The War” to get you know). On the other side Russians never treat them same way. I think bombing that small land off would solve alla troubles. Our president should do that long ago, but Russians are too polite. Those numerous terroristic acts have proven that they would not stop at all.
ncurran said on September 7, 2004 14:38:
dmirtry, your question about why should u give chechnya independence? Well it was no problem to grant other parts of the USSR independence so why is it such an issue for chechnya. If Russia needs oil it can buy it from an independent chechya. If Russia wants to be a modern democracy, it shouldnt act as a dictatorship to repress sections of its population.
I am scottish, and we have a political party called the SNP (Scottish National Party). They are the second biggest party after labour and get about 25-30% of the vote in elections. If there ever comes a time when the majority of scotland vote for them then we would negociate independence with england....the same goes for quebec in canada i would guess....that is what democracy is all about.
And anti-mario, i dont really understand your stance....u seem to hate chechens so much....if thats the case, why dont you support giving them their own country? and u say being russian for 25yrs gives u better judgement...i agree to an extent, but in some ways an outsider can have a wider judgement of the situation although he might not be so well informed. I say that because you are in russia, u see the whole russian propaganda in action. I would say the same about any situation around the world. While someones knowledge in a different part of the world is not so extensive, at least they can see both sides of the argument.
dmitryjm said on September 7, 2004 15:35:
Actually I agree with AntiMario. I think we need to destroy Chechnya and all of people that live there.
And new empty territory gives to Alaniya (North Osetiya.) We need to destroy and remove most caucasians from our land.
They to much harm russian peoples and russian lands.
They hate us...so why we must love them?
ncurran, what are you talking about? Chechnya is our land. Why we must give them independence and then buy our own oil???
You may remember, USSR was a union of 15 (as i remeber) wholeness countries. Chechnya was small part of Russia. Not Georgia, not Ukraine or any other. It was in Russia. So why we must give them our territory?
And if we talk about democracy, I’m not sure that people who killed children in school really know something about democracy.
I’m not sure that we need to talk with them.
And finaly I’m not sure that even if we give them independence that they will stop their attack on russian.
coyboyusa said on September 7, 2004 21:47:
you guys need to get a few things straight. jews don’t run my country and i don ’t watch fox news lol i watch cnn. The simple fact is radical mulslims are a cancers as much as hard lined jews are. You can’t deny that. Look at the GENOCIDe I repeat GENOCIDe they have comitted in africa. We;re talking millions of helpless starving women men and children being slaughtered in the name of a god and a religion. The fact that you never hear a single muslim representative open their mouth in objection calls the entire religious order into question in terms of their ethics. You can blame america for whatever you want but its the politcians of your own countries that you support that work with america so honestly you have noone to blame but yourselves for whatever quagmire you’ve gotten into by standing with americans. I’ve said it before, decline our aid, turn away our technology and go sort things out yourselves, but when u get invaded or bombed or hit by a natural disaster instead of waiting for america to come and help go spend the what was it 5-6 months it takes the un to decide the best course of action to help youy and then see how much you miss our comradery. You love to slander america but it was france germany russia and north korea who has been caught red handed ARMING dictators murderes and extremists. Deny it all you want, the us gov shoudl bag every fench and german made munitiion they dig out of ever kid that dies in iraq and mail it to the countries presidents as a reminder that they have blood on their hands
LittleSpooky said on September 8, 2004 02:59:
Dmitry: “We need to destroy and remove most caucasians from our land”. And you’re what colour....? Olive skinned like my brother Zeeshan? Black like my older step-brothers and sisters? “Red” like the Native Americans of my land?
CAUCASIAN IS WHITE YOU FOOL!
It’s because of people like you that this has happened! Holy hell! So WHAT if Chechnya wants independence from Russia. What’s that gonna cost in LIVES in the long run? How many more children have to die before this is over? The death toll is OVER 300 and still rising!!! People forget those that succumb to their injuries AFTER the fact.
No one can give anyone an absolute guarantee. Will this conflict continue? I don’t know. Will it end? I don’t know. But if you don’t give it a chance, YOUR BROTHERS, YOUR SISTERS, YOUR FATHERS, MOTHERS, FAMILY MEMBERS *WILL* be next. It really is just a matter of time before someone in your family is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and they either die at the hands of the “Evil Chechen Rebels” or they’re killed by the “Honourable Russian Soldiers” defending their territory. After someone in your family dies... come talk to me about your bigoted views.
ncurran said on September 8, 2004 05:02:
well if the opinion of the 2 russians who have posted here is representive of russians in general, then i certainly do fear for this region. Such blind hatred is not going to get anyone anywhere. If there is ever going to be a solution, u need to be willing to look at both sides. As an outsider, i can see both sides have committed terrible acts. However, i completely support the chechens struggle for independence...they have every right if that is what they want.
and coyboy, if u have never heard a muslim condemn terror attacks u have been looking in the wrong place. All the major islamic groups in the UK condemn al quaida as not representative of their religion. Linking islamic extremists with islam as a whole is like linking the IRA, Timothy McVeigh, Fred Phelps, abortion clinic bombers, etc with christianity.
Also get your facts right about who arms dictators, america is just as guilty as anyone else. They supported saddam financially during the iran-iraq war to build up is weapons arsenal.
AntiMario said on September 8, 2004 06:04:
Caucasians are white?? Ha-ha, you must have never seen them close, darling! Fear saying like that in Russia, you’ll have immediate troubles :)
No offence, but it’s another NATION. And it’s no any trace of race discrimination, so don’t call people fool here. And don’t judge that our families will be next, this time it’s not you who decide. Russian patience is titanic but some day it will come to an end. Germans already tried at WWII, torturing and killing everybody (not to mention tatars looong ago).
Ferdan said on September 8, 2004 07:29:
So you russians want to commit genocide against the chechenyans? Is that what most of the people want over there?
Just like the turks did what the armenians? the nazi to the jews and homosexuals and communists?
Hussein to the kurds? or the europeans to the american indigenous? /honest question
AntiMario said on September 8, 2004 10:15:
Russian newspapers today:
“Vladimir Putin: Why should we TALK to children’s murderers?”
coyboyusa said on September 8, 2004 11:54:
the minute u go and seize a school full of children and strap explosives to children and women you lose yur mebership in humanity and you no longer have the distinction fo colour race and rel;igion you are plainly evil and you should be ended if thats the attitude people had with fundametalist christians 100’s of yrs ago the crusdades never would have happened, hitler never would have risen to power and osama bin laden would still bve some pampered loser of a saudi sucking oil out of his mums tits
ncurran said on September 8, 2004 14:41:
thats true coyboy, but how many terrorists committed these attacks.....and how many ordinary chechens want independence. You can’t judge the masses on the actions of a very small minority. If you are going to have to say all chechens are evil because a handful committed these terrible attacks, then you have to say that all russians are evil because of the atrocities the army have committed in the region, all irish catholics are evil because of the IRA, all american christians are evil because of the bombers of abortion clinics, all basque people are evil because ETA plant bombs wanting independence from Spain....etc....etc...
In the end, you would have to say we are ALL evil, because we are all in some way affiliated with a social/ethnic group, and someone within that group WILL be evil
And Anti-mario, the confusion over the meaning of caucasion i understand now....we refer to all white people being caucasion. However i looked up the dictionary, and there is also a 2nd meaning refering to people from the caucasus region region which is the meaning you are refering to i see.
dmitryjm said on September 8, 2004 15:33:
LittleSpooky, yes I’m fool, but maybe chechens who killed 156 children are clever?
You talk that my family will be next? May be...
But if we bombed this Chechnya in 1994 or early - nothing happing now.
“So you russians want to commit genocide against the chechenyans?” – chechens commited genocide against us early.
I’m not nazi. And I hate nazism. But if you could see what they doing in our country - you start to hate them to.
ncurran, there are no more chechens in chechnya. All normal hummans leave it long time ago.
All who live there now are oldsters and terrorist. And other, who said that they are peace man, but when you turn back - the will shot in you back.
Thier woman are sharpshooters, and children can shot from 5 years old.
If we give them independence it will not solve a problems. As I remeber in 1994 Dudaev (their leader) said that war with Russia will continue for a 50 years.
We wants normal life. But chechens terrorists will never stop. It’s sad, but true of life.
Also I want to say you, that my view of life and AntiMario are very different, and we did not co-ordinate our possition before posted here. But this terrorism is true of our life.
ncurran said on September 8, 2004 18:45:
dmitry....i can understand where you are coming from believe it or not, and why you hate chechens. I also understand why chechens hate russians and I can also understand why some protestants hate catholics in ireland and vice versa, why some americans hate muslims after 9/11 and why some muslims hate americans....it goes on and on. The thing is when you are in the situation of being in one of the groups affected by violence or you feel your people are hard done by. Indeed in nearly every country there are stereotypes about people from other countries and attitudes brought about by either current events or history. Some French hate the english and vice versa, some scottish hate the english, some british hate the germans, some koreans hate the japanese.....
My point is that this attitude doesnt get anyone anywhere. Until I was eighteen as a scottish person i hated the english, that is until i worked in switzerland for 3 months and shared a room with an english guy and my narrowminded attitude changed overnight.
Nowadays i always do my best to judge each person on their individual merits, whatever the nationality, religion, sexuality, social status etc.
I doubt i will ever have kids, but if i did i would teach them the same thing. And thats another part of the problem, the problem is sometimes passed down generations when parents teach their children that certain groups of people are inferior to them. Its sad really.
Jud (moderator) said on September 8, 2004 22:01:
what colour are caucasian then? ;)
did we forget that this is just a way of speaking and that there’s no WHITE, RED, YELLOW, BLACK ... people? :S
mardain said on September 8, 2004 22:02:
@dmitryjm: dont matter what you think, school massacre in russia its done and we can not do anything about it, i feel very, very sad.... please let me ask you some questions... if you’re agree
1 what putin’s should do now (i mean the chechenyan terrorist)
2 what do you think he has done?( before the massacre)
LittleSpooky said on September 8, 2004 22:09:
Jude: I thought maybe I had GROSSLY read my employment application wrong. I checked “Casper”...er “Caucasian” because I didn’t qualify as “Hispanic”, “African-American”, “Native-American”, “Asian”, etc....
Thanks
AntiMario said on September 9, 2004 05:11:
You know how we call caucasians here (not behind the eyes)? “Black asses”. That’s the color you’ve asked for, Judith. What can we expect from people who lived their lives only with weapons in their hands, and 15-16 teenagers can only shoot & stab, huh? We haven’t started that. If they want independence by force (war?) - the war they will get. Win - independence is yours, lose - well, it wasn’t even worth to start. Know Alexander Nevsky famous phrase: “Who comes with the sword in their hands - will meet his death form the sword”
LittleSpooky said on September 9, 2004 05:38:
Obviously, someone is still MISSING what is being said.
http://www.m-w.com states:
Main Entry: Cau·ca·sian
Pronunciation: ko-’kA-zh&n, kä- also -’ka-zh&n
Function: adjective
1 : of or relating to the Caucasus or its inhabitants
2 : of, constituting, or characteristic of a race of humankind native to Europe, North Africa, and southwest Asia and classified according to physical features – used especially in referring to persons of European descent having usually light skin pigmentation (Writer’s addition: also known as WHITE people, as opposed to Black, Brown, Yellow, Red).
http://dictionary.cambridge.org states:
Definition
Caucasian [Show phonetics]
adjective
belonging to the races of people who have skin that is of a pale colour:
“The chief suspect for the robbery is a Caucasian male.”
Caucasian [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
http://dictionary.reference.com states:
5 entries found for Caucasian.
Cau·ca·sian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kô-kzhn, -kzhn)
adj.
Anthropology. Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe, northern Africa, western Asia, and India. No longer in scientific use. See Usage Note at race1.
Of or relating to the Caucasus region or its peoples, languages, or cultures.
Of or relating to a group of three language families spoken in the region of the Caucasus mountains, including Chechen, Abkhaz, and the Kartvelian languages.
n.
Anthropology. A member of the Caucasian racial classification. Not in scientific use.
A native or inhabitant of the Caucasus.
The Caucasian language family.
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Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Main Entry: Cau·ca·sian
Pronunciation: ’ko-’kA-zh&n, -’kazh-&n
Function: adjective
1 : of or relating to the white race of humankind as classified according to physical features
2 : of or relating to the white race as defined by law specifically as composed of persons of European, No. African, or southwest Asian ancestry —Caucasian noun
Source: Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
Caucasian
Cau*ca”sian, a. 1. Of or pertaining to the Caucasus, a mountainous region between the Black and Caspian seas.
2. Of or pertaining to the white races of mankind, of whom the people about Mount Caucasus were formerly taken as the type.
[Free Trial - Merriam-Webster Unabridged.]
Source: Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
Caucasian
Cau*ca”sian, n. 1. A native or inhabitant of the Caucasus, esp. a Circassian or Georgian.
2. A member of any of the white races of mankind.
[Free Trial - Merriam-Webster Unabridged.]
Source: Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
Caucasian
adj 1: of or relating to the geographical region of Caucasia; “Caucasian languages” [syn: Caucasian, Caucasic] 2: of or belonging to a racial group having light skin coloration; “voting patterns within the white population” [syn: white] [ant: black] n 1: a member of the Caucasoid race [syn: White, white person, Caucasian] 2: a number of languages spoken in the Caucasus that have no known affiliations to languages spoken elsewhere [syn: Caucasian, Caucasian language]
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
Has it sunk in yet, AntiMario? Or should I get MORE definitions for you?
Jud (moderator) said on September 9, 2004 05:46:
Little Spooky: I know!! I was asking AM what colour caucasian are then because I always believed they were “white”.
LittleSpooky said on September 9, 2004 05:47:
Jude: You posted as I was editing. Smooth. I like that.
Jud (moderator) said on September 9, 2004 05:50:
Btw, I wonder what would have happened to those two planes that exploded... if the media wouldn’t have insisted in investigating further. RU’s government must have think people is dumb and blind trying to picture the whole thing as ACCIDENTS !?!
I think any kind of radicalism is bad, either way. Those wanting the independence like that are wrong but those not wanting to TRY to stop that.. are also wrong.
In Spain we have had ETA for some 30 years, we have had times when ETA has stopped and has agreed to TALK when the government asked. Things went the bad way with Aznar (of course) but I hope that our new president will go the right way again - somewhen.
LittleSpooky said on September 9, 2004 05:57:
2 planes, identical points of origin, down within minutes of each other.
Accident?
In what fantasy world?
coyboyusa said on September 9, 2004 10:32:
uhm i thinkt he russian authroities are afraid of even briaching the possibility of chechyn independence because of exactly what has happened with israel/ palestianins. The both came 2 inches from brokering a peace deal when clinton was in office, then hamas and its radical elements went back to boming people and the whole thing started over. The simple fact is nothing will pacifi terrorists, they always change their demands and a deal for independence no matter how placating it is would never be enough for the extereme elements who would still bomb people and abduct people.
infofarmer said on September 9, 2004 10:50:
@LittleSpooky:
It’s strange to think that two meanings of one word should mean _each other_
Yes, Caucasian means “of or relating to the Caucasus or its inhabitants”
Yes, Caucasian also means “a member of any of the white races of mankind”
NO, inhabitants of Caucasus do NOT always have skin that is of a pale colour.
Hope it’ll sink in
Chechens are in fact very friendly people. My grandfather worked in Grozniy for many years, my parents used to know lots of his colleagues and they all said that you can hardly find a better or more reliable friend than a Chechen.
Now that Soviet Union is long gone, religion is dominating again in Chechen conciousness and radical leaders make use of it. Chechnya and neighboring republics are handy instruments for international terrorism.
Marie-fan said on September 9, 2004 14:54:
I think it´s sad for the people in Beslan. It´s a bad way to kill chilren and their parents.
ncurran said on September 9, 2004 15:04:
[email protected] try my best
As for the whole caucasian debate...i always thought it meant white myself, but if people in different countries use the word in a different way, so be it...not a big deal.
As for talking to terrorists....it can work, look what has happened in ireland over the past few years. The situation there is anything but perfect, and the peace is still somewhat fragile, but at least there is not the massive bloodshed that there was years ago. The problem is that when you take a hardline stance and say you are not willing to talk to people then all that happens is the situation gets worse, because neither side can win. The govt refuses to negotiate, so people think they have nothing to lose and carry on with the bombings and killings. But when the British govt said they would talk to the political wing of the IRA if they called a ceasefire they agreed after some negotiation and that ceasefire still holds today, despite some setbacks. The thing is, if the chechens have no hope or promise of fair elections, and they see russian tanks coming into their towns destroying buildings and killing people, forcing people out of their homes into refugee camps living in tents (ive seen the pictures)....I mean is it any wonder that the hate builds up inside them and they want to fight back in the only way they can?
And Coyboy as for the Israel/Palestinian issue....i think we should keep that out of this discussion...its a very complicated situation and both sides are guilty......maybe its not wise to get into it right now.
AntiMario said on September 9, 2004 18:38:
LittleSpooky, thanx for your trying to teach me who they really are. Especially according only to your dictionary languages. So you suppose I do not see them often on the street and do not use word “caucasian” rightly? Easy to judge from your far point of view, yeah. US, right?
I use the word as we do and did in Russia and not in the dictionary. Kavkaztsy, checheny, chernozhopiye. That does have the same meaning here. Pale skin? Ha-ha, show me 10 pix of that please. Or come here to check. If you call them white, then rednecks & indians are also white :)
Jud (moderator) said on September 9, 2004 20:28:
As somebody stated before, we clearly use the word caucasian to mean different things. Caucasian for me and for many others here is the “white” race that lives in Europe, US, etc etc.. so called “white men”. Clearly you use this word for something else: inhabitans from the Caucasus.
So sorry to break it but _for most of us_ you (unless you look chinese or mongolian or black or indian) are also caucasian.
So AM, I don’t think there’s any need to attack anyone, can we please go on without flaming? thanks.
Rednecks aren’t a race, I think they used to be the poorest who worked in the fields (south?) of US.. and therefore got red necks because of the sun ;)
An Indian is an indian, native from America - not only north but also South, look at people from Peru or Mexico and compare them to the native americans, similar features.. but longer hair.. ;)
sweet_stalker57 said on September 10, 2004 02:53:
there is plenty of free land and housing available in
Russia!
http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chapter1.html
;)
dasvidanya!
LittleSpooky said on September 10, 2004 03:40:
Sweets: Promoting that site again, eh?
AntiMario: So, if you’re not white... I suppose I can call you a spook (Black), or a wetback (lazy, uneducated Mexican), or Wop (Italian).... Do you see what ignorance does? And if you had an inch of clue: Cambridge is in ENGLAND.
Tanya82 said on September 13, 2004 18:00:
You people haven’t got a clue about what’s going on in Russia so don’t judge us.
LittleSpooky said on September 13, 2004 19:37:
Who the hell is judging you? We’re just fed up with the whole “I’m right, you’re wrong NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY” attitude.
ncurran said on September 14, 2004 16:17:
Tanya, i’m sure you know lots about russian culture than i do, but in some ways i might also have a less biased and wider perspective on the whole situation than you could ever have actually living in russia. Putin is doing all he can to take russia backwards and give himself more power.....not sure how much of the free press in russia you can access on the internet, but maybe you should read up on it.
Ferdan said on September 14, 2004 18:45:
And we thought Bush’s Patriot Act was scary....
“September 14, 2004
Opponents Call Putin’s Overhaul Plan a Step Back
By STEVEN LEE MYERS
MOSCOW, Sept. 13 - President Vladimir V. Putin ordered a stunning overhaul of Russia’s political system on Monday in what he called an effort to unite the country against terrorism. If enacted, as expected, the proposals would strengthen his already pervasive control over the legislative branch and regional governments.
Mr. Putin, meeting in special session with cabinet ministers and regional government leaders, outlined what would be the most sweeping political overhaul - and his most striking single step to consolidate power - in Russia in more than a decade. Critics immediately said it would violate the Constitution and stifle what political opposition remains.
Under Mr. Putin’s proposals, which he said required only legislative approval and not constitutional amendments, THE GOVERNORS OR LEADERS OF THE COUNTRY’S 89 REGIONS WOULD NO LONGER BE ELECTED BY POPULAR VOTE but rather by local legislatures - and only after the president’s nomination. Seats in the lower house of the federal Parliament, or Duma, would be elected entirely on national party slates, eliminating district races across the country that now decide half of Parliament’s composition. In elections last December, those races accounted for all of the independents and liberals now serving in the Duma.
After the school siege in Beslan, the downing of two airliners and other terrorist attacks that have shaken the country, Mr. Putin argued once again that Russia was ill-prepared to fight terrorism and said that the country needed a more unified political system. His proposals on Monday, however, made it clear that for him, unity meant a consolidation of power in the executive branch.
“Those who inspire, organize and carry out terrorist acts are striving to disintegrate the country,” Mr. Putin said in televised remarks that the state channels rebroadcast repeatedly, in their entirety, through the day and evening. “They strive for the break up of the state, for the ruin of Russia. I am sure that the unity of the country is the main prerequisite for victory over terror.”
The Bush administration was restrained in its comments about Mr. Putin’s proposals.
“This is a domestic matter for the Russian people,” said a White House official who asked to remain anonymous. “It is important for Russia to continue along the pathway of democracy and economic reform.”
Across the short spectrum of political opposition in today’s Russia, reactions ranged from stunned disbelief to helpless anger.
Gennadi A. Zyuganov, the leader of the main opposition party, the Communists, called the proposals “ill conceived.” Sergei S. Mitrokhin, a leader of the liberal Yabloko party, said they represented “the elimination of the last links in a system of checks and balances.”
Mikhail M. Zadornov, an independent deputy who was elected from a district in southern Moscow last year, said that rather than unifying Russians against terror, the proposals would simply disenfranchise them from politics and the state.
“All these measures,” he said in a telephone interview, “mean we are coming back to the U.S.S.R.”
The electoral changes are subject to the approval of Parliament, but because the party loyal to Mr. Putin, United Russia, controls more than two-thirds of the 450 seats, that is almost a foregone conclusion. Mr. Mitrokhin said that although Mr. Putin’s proposals “contradict the letter and the spirit of the Constitution,” challenges to them would be futile.
“Unfortunately,” he said, “in Russia there is no independent Parliament and no independent judiciary.”
In the wrenching days since the siege at Middle School No. 1 in Beslan, where Chechen and other terrorists held and ultimately killed hundreds of hostages, Mr. Putin has appeared publicly a handful of times and with unusual candor admitted the government’s failures and weaknesses in fighting terrorism. Until Monday, however, he had offered only the vaguest proposals to fix them, instead exhorting Russians to mobilize against the threats facing the country.
In the years since Boris N. Yeltsin elevated him to the presidency on Dec. 31, 1999, Mr. Putin has steadily consolidated political power in the executive branch, often by the sheer force of his will. He took away from the regions the power to appoint the upper house of Parliament. He imposed a structure of seven federal districts over the vast and unruly country, each led by his appointees. He also used the Kremlin’s vast power over television and government resources, as well as his extensive personal popularity, to reward loyal governors and punish or push aside disloyal ones.
The proposals on Monday, however, went further than any of other steps under Mr. Putin’s watch.
Since Russia adopted a new Constitution in 1993, residents of the country’s 89 regions, from Chukotka in the east to Kaliningrad in the west, have elected their governors or, in some places, presidents. They have also sent their own regional deputies to Moscow. Mr. Putin’s proposals would take those choices out of the voters’ hands.
Mr. Putin said the change in parliamentary elections would strengthen the national parties, which he said would ensure “a real dialogue and interaction between power and society in the fight against terror.”
In the December elections, only four parties crossed the threshold for winning seats and three of them generally support the Kremlin: United Russia, the Liberal Democrats and Motherland. The Communist Party, marginalized and increasingly disorganized, remains the only pure opposition party. Two other opposition parties, Yabloko and the Union of Right Forces, failed to win any seats. A direct proportional election would give the advantage of incumbency to parties in power and eliminate local grass-roots campaigns that have provided the handful of dissenting voices heard on the Duma floor.
Andrei A. Piontovsky, an analyst at the Center for Strategic Studies in Moscow, said the change in regional elections could have the unintended consequence of alienating voters in the ethnic patchwork of semiautonomous regions and republics, many led by presidents who enjoy at least a degree of independence from the central government.
“It is not only stupid,” he said of the proposal to have Mr. Putin appoint regional leaders to be approved by local Parliaments. “It is very sensitive for the national republics like Tatarstan and those in the North Caucasus. It will be a humiliation to the people there.”
After Mr. Putin’s meeting, a number of regional leaders loyal to the Kremlin appeared on state television and endorsed his proposals, if not that one specifically. They included Tatarstan’s president, Mintimer S. Shaimiev; the governor of the city of St. Petersburg, Valentina I. Matviyenko; and the newly elected president of Chechnya, Alu Alkhanov.
Mr. Putin has faced unusually pointed criticism from the public and in newspapers after the standoff with militants at a school in Beslan, which ended in the death of at least 339 people, about half of whom were children. Last Friday, appearing to bow to pressure, he agreed to a public inquiry into the attack on the school, though one controlled by the Federal Council, whose members he appoints. On Saturday, he also dismissed the interior minister and security chief of North Ossetia, where Beslan is, though not its president, Aleksandr S. Dzasokhov, who was among those at Mr. Putin’s special session on Monday.
In addition to the changes in the political system, Mr. Putin also demoted his representative in the Southern Federal District, Vladimir A. Yakovlev, who had overseen Chechnya and the rest of the North Caucasus. In his place, Mr. Putin appointed one of his most trusted aides, Dmitri N. Kozak, who since March has been chief of the government. Before that, Mr. Kozak oversaw Mr. Putin’s efforts to rewrite the criminal code and to streamline the government.
Mr. Putin also proposed the unification of counterterrorism efforts in a single agency, citing the examples of “a whole number of countries which have been confronted with the terrorist threat.” That appeared to be a reference to agencies like the Department of Homeland Security in the United States, which some here have said Russia should emulate, but Mr. Putin did not provide any details.
He also called for banning “extremist organizations using religious, nationalistic and any other phraseology as cover” and tougher penalties for crimes committed by terrorists, even minor ones like obtaining a false passport.
The electoral changes, however, provoked the fiercest criticism.
“It is not a reaction to a terrorist attack,” Mr. Zadornov said. “It is an attempt to change the political system to have more control.” “
Rich-UK said on September 3, 2004 21:17:
No words can describe how bad this was, so I won’t try :-(