The Daily Roxette discussions forum has been closed. The forum is only available as a read-only archive.
STYLE DETERIORATION
36 replies
boykie19 said on February 20, 2003 13:21:
u obviously didnt hear the song Oppurtunity nox?
coyboyusa said on February 20, 2003 13:17:
well once u have kids and a life u don’t have as much time to just slum around a studiop perfecting songs
lonely_girl said on February 21, 2003 07:16:
I don’t think RS is the weakest album. I love most songs except MMHGP and Real Sugar, TCOTH Jefferson and MATAH are just great
Santi said on February 21, 2003 07:34:
Real Sugar is my favourite song from the last two (real) albums!!! :p
powerpoplarry said on February 21, 2003 09:11:
I disagree BIGTIME!! Um, in my opinion, “Room Service” is Roxette’s BEST album so far!! And “Opportunity Nox” is their best, if not one of their best, single yet!! Before, they sounded a bit too commercial, a bit too Americanized, but after the US fallout, and Per’s solo album + Lonely Boys project, he’s been rejuvenated. I think HAND and RS are Roxette’s 2 best albums, cuz they are more in the vein of classic POWERPOP, f*** the radiostations. It’s like they felt more natural, more pleasing to themselves, more true, and this comes off in the music.
Darkblade, sorry to say, your mindset is stuck in the American commercial mindset, not in what true, great, powerpop really is!! It’s pure and not concerned with the bottom dollar.
I love the current/new direction, and they should never go back cuz they evolved, and the poptunes are more exciting and melodic than ever!!
boykie19 said on February 21, 2003 09:37:
i think the least sounding roxette album would have 2 be “CBB” cus not any of the other albums were close 2 that 1...
i agree roxette should carry on doin what they r...cus its gr8 :)
just no more songs like MMHGP then its all cool :P
Santi said on February 21, 2003 19:59:
@powerpoplarry: You’re really a “powerpop integrist” :D lol :DDDD
Chester said on February 21, 2003 21:18:
I wasn’t keen on the design of the HAND cd, but it is my favourite ROXETTE album at the moment and has been for a long time. Listening to Pearls at the moment, So Far Away.......
rox-kuryliw said on February 22, 2003 00:06:
Love, room service, album, best cd cover and booklet, photos are great (mix of modern 80’s bootlegs and frills hehe), all the videos are really good aswell, plus my all time fave TCOTH. so we all have different ideas of deterioration dont we. LOL best Look for roxette for me. ;-))
DaminehGessle said on February 22, 2003 02:02:
@darkblade:
I believe the new songs on The Ballads Hits are pretty cool and Opportunity Nox is just so refreshing. Why do some of us just want to be so pessimistic?
powerpoplarry said on February 23, 2003 09:22:
Yes Santi, I am VERY knowledgeable in the rock + roll subgenre known as powerpop. What to you mean by the word “integrist”?? Never heard of that one, haha!! Do you mean EXPERT or ENTHUSIAST?? Actually I am both of those, and yes, Per is a disciple/student of powerpop songwriting and recordmaking. It is a distinctive style and is a craft, making the perfect pop song, the perfect single, and powerpop just adds rock + roll energy + guitars to the mix, but doesn’t lose sight of the hooks, melodies, energy, brightness, excitement and enthusiasm, like OMG, that’s such a killer song!! Great riffs, catchy chorus, tunes that stay stuck in your head for days, that you want to hear the song again and again and again!!
Yes, you know what I mean, haha!! ON is a perfect, and I mean PERFECT, POWERPOP single, WOOHOO!!
Santi said on February 23, 2003 14:49:
Oops, sorry :D I put it in Spanglish :p
“Powerpop Fundamentalist” I meant.
coyboyusa said on February 23, 2003 15:44:
lol how is what I said cynnical? its true even per has admitted it. RS is a weak album per dropped the ball lyrically on a lot of songs just to make things rhyme...BTW ..has anyone ever noticed that FLAF is the only songs that per has written thats has little or no rhyme in it?
Santi said on February 23, 2003 21:52:
@coyboyusa: “well once u have kids and a life u don’t have as much time to just slum around a studiop perfecting songs”
There’s a lot of people that have kids and a life and still do their works as good as always...
patricia said on February 23, 2003 22:11:
Breathe and Opportunity Nox are the best songs I ever heard . I think Roxette has to grow up and improve its songs. It’s 2003 and Roxette is still on scene,that’s good. They’re making music for 2003.
powerpoplarry said on February 24, 2003 10:26:
No Coyboy, RS is the BEST album Roxette has ever made, musically AND lyrically!! It’s 100 times better than “Joyride” and “Look Sharp”, or at least a lot fresher and in the vein of classic powerpop. My opinion and that’s that. They’re getting better and better, and they EVOLVED from those earlier records...Per was just being modest and he’s his own worst critic, when the opposite is true. The guy is a pop tunesmith of the highest order. You don’t see it coyboy cuz you really don’t understand what GOOD powerpop really is, and you are stuck in a mold, sorry to say, wanting Per and Marie to create Joyride Mk II and III. Sorry, but artists evolve, whether you like it or not, and they are staying true to themselves FIRST before pleasing anybody else, which is the way ALL artists should be!!
Oh, and despite Per having a family, this doesn’t stop a true artist from always writing songs, great songs!! why?? They’re in his blood, they HAVE to come out, and Per has a home studio. On the other hand, Faith Hill doesn’t write, as she claims she doesn’t have time. I call her lazy and not a true artist, because songwriting is not in her blood, it’s a job or chore for her. As opposed to a genius like Per, who has songs coming out of his ass, they can’t be stopped!! Plus, they’re getting better and better, as evidenced by the knockout best single he’s done yet, “Opportunity Nox”!!
’Nuff said, Coyboy, you just don’t GET it, bottom line, either you do or you don’t, and you definitely don’t. No middle ground here, nothing personal either.
Santi said on February 24, 2003 18:02:
What I said... power pop fundamentalist.
Btw... what’s wrong with singers that can’t write the songs they sing? Does that make them worse singers? Worse artists?
Just as example Marie Fredriksson solo uses to co-work and sometimes sings songs that she had nothing to do in the writting, and in Roxette you see what she sings of herself: 2 lyrics and more or less 10 musics composed by her, none of them has ever been a Roxette single so they are just known by fans. So is she worse artist than Per?
I just want to say that a songwriter is a songwriter and a musician is a musician, and a songwriter is a musician but a musician is not compulsory that is songwriter too. Is that so hard to understand?
In Classical music best performers are not usually the best composers, and with that you also are saying that all bass players, guitar players, drummers, keyboard players... etc... in your worshipped “power pop” are not musicians or artists.
Santi said on February 24, 2003 18:08:
@Coyboyusa: I guess Per refers to things like “True love might come FROM BEHIND, you never know what to find, but didn’t she blow my mind this time” :DDDDDD
Good that they realised when hearing the demo, I’m almost sure Marie had a good laught with that one :DDDD
powerpoplarry said on February 25, 2003 01:02:
OK, fundamentalist, I guess that word works...
Now, I’ve even been going over these issues in my own head even, songwriters vs non-writing singers. This topic is hard to explain without coming off as hypocritical or snobbish, but I’ll do my best here, so bear with me, OK Santi??
Now, to me personally, the best artists are those who are strictly songwriters and/or multi-instrumentalists. USUALLY, singers who don’t write their own material are fabricated or no-talents discovered by record labels on the street for their looks. Many of these prefab people can’t even sing, but have their vocals run through a computer!! There ARE exceptions to this rule, though. There are singers, who do not write, but have a distinctive style and canny knack for picking good material that suits their style. They are stylish and exude a cool mood. These singers I call CHANTEUSES. Some of these people also can write, but that isn’t their focus. A perfect example of a singer capable of both is Grammy winner Norah Jones, but her voice is the focus, YET a song she didn’t write but one of her bandmembers did was the center of attention, “Don’t Know Why”.
To me, singers who don’t write and get away with it, usually rely on a house team for material, not an endless array of songwriting hacks creating bland material. Perfect example: ANNA VISSI. She relies on her ex-husband, Nikos Karvelas, mainly, for material, not your Diane Warrens and Holly Knights, know what I mean??
On the other end of the spectrum: cookie-cutter mainstream country singers. These people are discovered on the streets of Nashville, molded in the label’s boardrooms, and anonymous, average songs are given to them to sing, 10 songs are recorded, an album is put out, bam, and singles are sent to country radio. It’s all for making a quick buck, no focus on artistry, just image. Faith Hill is a step ahead of this hackwork, because she has an identifiable style in her voice, AND her first album had 2 decent songs CO-WRITTEN by Faith. Now she claims she doesn’t write much, if at all, cuz she doesn’t have the time (husband–the CRAPPY, untalented Tim McGraw–and their 3 daughters), BUT she spends hours upon countless hours weeding through tapes and demos for material??!!?? THAT’s why I call Faith lazy, cuz she could spend her needed time WRITING SONGS instead of searching for material!! Know what I mean?? She is a good singer though, I wish she’d change her approach, cuz writing your own songs adds CREDIBILITY to your reputation.
I hope I explained myself welll.
Per doesn’t have this problem, as he has songs oozing out of his ass, they can’t be stopped, and his tunesmithery is of the highest order, and EFFORTLESS, not at all a job, it’s just natural to him. Co-writing is great, as well as writing for others, as long as those singers write songs too. Um, Marie is an artist too, but she likes to collaborate and likes other writers’ work besides her own, enough to cover. Per probably just prefers to sing his own songs and write for others to sing, aka Belinda Carlisle. Marie likes to sing Per’s songs cuz she likes his writing and their vocal blend. And probably, Per’s songs work better in a Roxette setting, rather than Marie-written material. That’s the difference between the two of them, their approach, but no, Marie isn’t less of an artist than Per, cuz at least she writes/co-writes and plays her own songs too, on her own. Both are incredible artists.
>>I just want to say that a songwriter is a songwriter and a musician is a musician, and a songwriter is a musician but a musician is not compulsory that is songwriter too. Is that so hard to understand?In Classical music best performers are not usually the best composers, and with that you also are saying that all bass players, guitar players, drummers, keyboard players... etc... in your worshipped “power pop” are not musicians or artists.
Santi said on February 25, 2003 12:24:
You’re not right, Per’s “band man” for the demos is Mats MP Persson. He also says he doesn’t play well so he prefers others to play in the records and live. In the beginning he wasn’t even sure he should sing Gyllene Tider songs, and about Roxette, well, he was more confident of his vocals but
(text taken from the booklet of “don’t bore us, get to the chorus” as said by Per Gessle) “the whole idea behind Roxette was me writing clever songs and Marie singing like a goddess and we’d conquer the world. Me being a lead singer wasn’t part of the plan, not for me anyway”.
I think Per thinks of himself more as a songwriter than the rest of things. He’s always thought he is not a good performer. A proof for that too is that if you watch or listen any Roxette or Gyllene Tider concert... Is Per’s guitar plugged at all?? :O (Ok, it is, but the volume is so low that you very hardly listen to him).
About Faith Hill... ok, anyone can write a song (it seems), but have you thought maybe she thinks her songs are not good enough and avoids doing that (just like Per with the guitars in concert). To be a good composer and a good performer and a good mother takes a lot of time. To be good in anything takes a lot of time! :O Imagine many things at the same time...
She has to spend time on her voice, she has to take care of the kids, she has to live a healthy live (because otherwise the voice is not good anymore), she has to record... and you want her to study musical theory and spend endless hours with a rhyming dictionary to get something that she may not like? (Just another Per’s opinion from the same booklet, about The Look: “I just thought it was a throwaway”) And being people out there doing that job?
May I remember you Roxette were “off” for quite long because they wanted to be with their kids? And none of them has 3!
I guess you don’t have kids, because that’s as hard as any world tour!!!
harriej said on February 25, 2003 20:13:
I don’t agree. There is no style deterioration.
Although HAND is in my opinion not such a good album (but with several good tracks on it), I think Roxette are still very good.
And RS was a better album than HAND, so I would say they are back on the road again.
Don’t forget the really beatiful My World, My Love, My life, which is on RS!!
It is one of the best ballads Roxette has ever made.
And the new single Opportunity Nox is playing in repeat-mode here, because it is great.
Stormkeeper said on February 25, 2003 20:19:
MATAH is a great radio hit but my real fave from RS is TCOTH.
bunny said on February 26, 2003 01:13:
That’s not entirely true. ON is their best uptempo song since The Look in my opinion. I do have to agree that their ballads are sounding more cheezy these days though
coyboyusa said on February 26, 2003 16:20:
along the lines of faith hill, there are two types of preformeers..singer song writiers and interpreters. faith and celine dion and even barbara streisand are these type of performers.
hand was a great departure from what had become a stale sound for roxette. they sounded hungry again..rs sounded like 2 middle aged peopel on a back porch singing not to be offensive but it wasn’t meant ot be a hit album...just a roxette album like pop
pattisimons said on February 26, 2003 21:48:
I have been a fan for over twenty years and being from Canada, had to special Room Service thru my local music store. I was really disappointed. It sounds like Per and Marie are sleepingwalking thru this album. They could have phoned it in. I’ve never heard of this “Hand” you are all talking about. I have, however, heard good things about Opportunity Nox and a couple of other new songs. Regardless, I will always love Roxette and the happiness they bring to my life. They are the only band I listen to in my car!
roxtexanet said on February 26, 2003 22:22:
@Patti: So, you think that “Room Service” is clearly inferior to “Heartland” (the album ’Roxette’ released 20 years ago when you first became a fan)? (-; “HaND” is short for Roxette’s (brilliant) fifth studio album “Have a Nice Day” and you should be able to find it at HMV or the Future Shop.
powerpoplarry said on February 27, 2003 08:10:
>>You’re not right, Per’s “band man” for the demos is Mats MP Persson.He also says he doesn’t play well so he prefers others to play in the records and live. In the beginning he wasn’t even sure he should sing Gyllene Tider songs, and about Roxette, well, he was more confident of his vocals but (text taken from the booklet of “don’t bore us, get to the chorus” as said by Per Gessle) “the whole idea behind Roxette was me writing clever songs and Marie singing like a goddess and we’d conquer the world. Me being a lead singer wasn’t part of the plan, not for me anyway”.along the lines of faith hill, there are two types of preformeers..singer song writiers and interpreters. faith and celine dion and even barbara streisand are these type of performers.
Santi said on February 27, 2003 10:33:
It’s cool from a point of view for me, since I (me, myself) seem to be the kind of artist you like (or pre-artist). I write songs (thought I have problems with lyrics), I play all the instruments in my demos and I get up at 1 AM before I can fall asleep with a tune in my mind to record it in a tape :D And it’s even “power pop”, or something like that... :p
But anyway, I still don’t agree in some things. Well, let’s start with Gessle :p The only thing played by him I have heard in concert clearly was the riff of “I wish I could fly”.
F. Hill: I think for a woman to have a kid is not like for Per Gessle or any man. Besides, there’s another point. If you just have to listen, you can do it very well while doing something else, but for writing you need to leave the world apart. You need to forget about anything and that takes time.
About your “some people have to put effort into their craft, some people it comes naturally”, I think you’re very wrong. The best violin player in the world, the best guitar player in the world, the best pianist in the world may have something that comes naturally, but there are endless hours of practising behind, (Slash -G’N’R guitar player- used to practise 8 hours a day before he was known :O and it’s just an example). With singers it’s the same, they have a technic and they need time for developing and practising in a daily routine, at least that is what they teach (us) singers :D But ok, I’ll never sing like Freddie Mercury... but still I’m sure he practised much more than me.
Performing is an art. At least in my language. In the official dictionary of my language (it’s Spanish... and unlike English Spanish has an official dictionary) the first meaning of the word ARTE (art) is “Virtue, disposal, talent or skill for doing something”. Again, repeating myself -> Creation is creation and art is art, and creation is art but art doesn’t imply creation. Performing is art, and performers are artists. Just like Anders Herrlin is an artist but he does not compose (even if he even composes).
More about Faith :D Maybe she does the songs just for herself. The front man of a Brittish band called Oasis used to do his own songs but he never let his brother see them. His brother was the guitar player and composer of all the songs. Anyway, the guy did them just for himself, while all around the world he was singing his brother’s songs. Some people just want to express what they feel without needing the feel of releasing them, like Marie’s or John Squire’s (Stone Roses’ guitar player) paintings. Maybe Faith takes her songs like that too... first song you can hear by Liam Gallagher (Oasis’ frontman) is included in the 4TH!! Cd of the band. Give her time.
About the songs of her you already know... do you know exactly what of it she wrote? Maybe it was two lines in the first verse... who knows that? :O
About Per’s “throwaways” you can check what Åsa (Per’s wife) says about him composing and he about music in my post on this thread: (so far it’s the last post) http://www2.dailyroxette.com/smalltalk/thread.php/5194?p=2
powerpoplarry said on February 28, 2003 00:32:
That’s cool you’re a perfect example of a pure powerpop artist, a 1-man band, so at least you understand where I am coming from. Yep, many of these artists have melodies and words running thru their heads all the time, and have to put it on tape before they go to bed. I read stuff like this in liner notes and in interviews all the time. I’d love to hear your demos!! I’m curious to see if they are in the powerpop style I love...
About Per playing live, only the riff from WICF?? I’d have to hear this for myself. I, however, saw their UNPLUGGED mini-set at the Virgin Megastore in NYC in 2000, and Per was DEFINITELY playing lead ACOUSTIC guitar, I heard the riffs myself, and he was definitely into his playing, full of confidence and everything. I heard and saw this with my own eyes.
With Faith Hill, I understand your point, with having a kid takes full effort and attention, yes a world apart. I’m trying to think of an example of a female composer who has a kid or more. Lessee, Madonna, ROL + Music were created by Madonna and either William Orbit or Mirwais, not just her listening, as Madonna is definitely a musician and composer, and she has two kids. Another one?? The Dixie Chicks, players, writers, and moms/wives alike. Now, there’s Sarah McLachlan, who is now a mom. Also, Sass Jordan, from Canada, who is a rocker + singer/songwriter, and also a mom. But there are not too many, I agree. A fave of mine, powerpop singer/songwriter/guitarist (and keyboardist) Michelle Branch, she’s really great, but not yet a mom, she’s only 19. Sheryl Crow is another one, a singer/songwriter/multi-instrumentalist, but at 40, not a mom yet. Same with Amanda Marshall, singer/songwriter/keyboardist, but not yet a mother. I guess we’ll see what happens when they have kids.
I still stand by the fact that some singer/songwriters have to put effort into their craft, but for some it comes naturally. I’m not talking about people who are strictly musicians with riffs up the wazoo here. I’m talking about recording artists who are the 1-man-band type, people like my friend Richard X Heyman + a guy like Adam Schmitt or Ryan Adams. These people really don’t HAVE to practice, they are constantly writing songs and recording demos. Maybe they do some scales once in a while, but that’s it. My friend Nancy, RXH’s wife, she plays bass with him live and on his records, she’s not practicing either all the time. Sure, there are players like Slash, who feel they have to practice, but they aren’t songwriters, they are strictly players and they feel they have to keep their chops up, so they practice often. That’s all. Richard, Adam and Ryan are a whole other breed. Some singers feel they have to do breathing exercises and stuff, but that’s usually right before they go on live. Richard, my friend, he always drinks tea, but he’s not riffing away often, he’s usually rescuing a cat or something, as he’s a cat rescuer when not recording or writing. I don’t know about you, but I’m not into belters, wankers, or people who riff just to show off, and that’s what a lot of these people you referring to are.
Sure, some performing is an art, espesh on the Broadway stage, but bands just doing a gig in a club, that’s not really an art. Many are just natural performers, like this powerpop band American HiFi, who exude energy and fun, as well as RXH. Some can’t perform live at all, like Oasis, who are just flat-out BORING. They all just stand there, not moving, and Liam just stands in front of a mic, hands behind his back, and bleating away. Not to mention, their songs are derivative as hell!!
>>The first meaning of the word ARTE (art) is “Virtue, disposal, talent or skill for doing something”. Again, repeating myself -> Creation is creation and art is art, and creation is art but art doesn’t imply creation. Performing is art, and performers are artists. Just like Anders Herrlin is an artist but he does not compose (even if he even composes).
darkblade said on February 20, 2003 12:34:
I think Roxette is going through a style deterioration.... Look Sharp , Joyride, Crash Boom Bang, Have a nice day, were all very good albums with well-ellaborated songs, original melodies, really good music.....but, starting from the album Room Service, Roxette’s style started deteriorating....the only good songs in that album are Milk and Toast and Honey, and It takes you no time to get here.....the rest reflects a lack of quality in music, melodies, etc. After that they are going from bad to worse, the new music and songs they have recently composed are not quality music, they are not well-developed, well composed, bad music, bad lyrics, lack of originality in the melodies...not good at all, it seems like music just done for the sake of selling.....it is EFFORTLESS music.......
anyone shares my opinion or nobody agrees??